gacoon

Garmin G5 as Backup Attitude for ASPEN PFD1000

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4 minutes ago, Marauder said:
7 minutes ago, Marauder said:

You aren't off your rocker, but someone sure is. I am still trying to figure out how you can pull a vacuum AI and install a standalone G5 AI. Yet, an Aspen with a second battery backup AI, driven by a gyro is. And what exactly make a Sandia Quattro legit and the ESI-500 not? Both are AHRS driving units with battery backups. Yeah, yeah, I know. Governmental bureaucracy. Same people who let you a guy with health issues drive a 70,000 rig down the highway, but a pilot with an ingrown toenail needs to be deferred.

Hopefully, the madness will subside for the next generation. 

You aren't off your rocker, but someone sure is. I am still trying to figure out how you can pull a vacuum AI and install a standalone G5 AI. Yet, an Aspen with a second battery backup AI, driven by a gyro is. And what exactly make a Sandia Quattro legit and the ESI-500 not? Both are AHRS driving units with battery backups. Yeah, yeah, I know. Governmental bureaucracy. Same people who let you a guy with health issues drive a 70,000 rig down the highway, but a pilot with an ingrown toenail needs to be deferred.

Hopefully, the madness will subside for the next generation. 

I'm kinda hoping this nuttiness subsides sooner rather than later.  I am starting to develop a taste for real IFR and have an avionics install scheduled.  My vac pump and vac-driven AI are a little long in the tooth and replacing/overhauling seems absurd when there are technologically superior options.  Upgrading the Aspen pfd to the Max version seems like a no brainer.   The max mfd becomes a lot of money though, particularly if you need the extended battery (seems pointless since the battery life is 2+ hours without it?) plus the charts subscription plus the unlock fee to get ads-b in and on and on.  The ESI-500 was a serious contender (backup NAV, synth vision) but now that's out too. Looks like it's gonna be the Sandia.  I kinda want to put in a questionably legal G5 and call it a day.  I'm sure there will be a great, reasonably priced solution the day the install is complete.  

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I'm kinda hoping this nuttiness subsides sooner rather than later.  I am starting to develop a taste for real IFR and have an avionics install scheduled.  My vac pump and vac-driven AI are a little long in the tooth and replacing/overhauling seems absurd when there are technologically superior options.  Upgrading the Aspen pfd to the Max version seems like a no brainer.   The max mfd becomes a lot of money though, particularly if you need the extended battery (seems pointless since the battery life is 2+ hours without it?) plus the charts subscription plus the unlock fee to get ads-b in and on and on.  The ESI-500 was a serious contender (backup NAV, synth vision) but now that's out too. Looks like it's gonna be the Sandia.  I kinda want to put in a questionably legal G5 and call it a day.  I'm sure there will be a great, reasonably priced solution the day the install is complete.  

 

We can only hope the same people who authorized the G5 as a standalone AI to eliminate a concern over vacuum pumps (that have been used in one form or another for decades) will come to the rescue and realize that ANY backup to a glass AI is light years ahead of what most of us have been flying for decades with.

 

The Aspen Max makes a lot of sense. I still want to see how it gets certified before I do anything. Again if the backup battery is the catch-all for this, why not get a lithium battery certified instead of the shorter life stuff they have in their now.

 

I would also wait to see what offers Aspen makes. If you catch them at the right time, it may not be that much of a difference. As for the SVT, in our neck of the woods, it's not a big advantage. I keep forgetting I have it and when I turn it on, it's like ho-hum, nothing to see here. The traffic on the PFD is nice.

 

Flight from Saturday. Turned on the SVT and turned off the AP. Guess what? I still know how to hand fly long distances 🤪

 

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@MarauderSo I spoke with an avionics guy we know - He is still doing the ESI-500 installs as backup to Aspen but won't install the Sandia now because of poor reliability and trouble getting warranty support from the company.  However he IS now signing off G5 installs - I may just go that route - can't beat the backup functionality it offers for $3000.

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35 minutes ago, DXB said:

@MarauderSo I spoke with an avionics guy we know - He is still doing the ESI-500 installs as backup to Aspen but won't install the Sandia now because of poor reliability and trouble getting warranty support from the company.  However he IS now signing off G5 installs - I may just go that route - can't beat the backup functionality it offers for $3000.

And now that Garmin has blessed it as a backup I'd feel more comfortable with it. Plus if you ever go with the GFC500 you need a G5.

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18 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

And now that Garmin has blessed it as a backup I'd feel more comfortable with it. Plus if you ever go with the GFC500 you need a G5.

Garmin has approved the G5 as a backup?

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I understand that Garmin has approved the G5 as a backup for certain situations... probably not Aspen. But since it's approved as a backup somewhere, it should be easier to get it approved as an Aspen backup.

Of course now with the Aspen MAX, a PFD/MFD combo doesn't need a backup.

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11 minutes ago, rbridges said:

Garmin has approved the G5 as a backup?

Yes, back in July.  (or maybe June)

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On 10/9/2018 at 7:15 PM, DXB said:

@MarauderSo I spoke with an avionics guy we know - He is still doing the ESI-500 installs as backup to Aspen but won't install the Sandia now because of poor reliability and trouble getting warranty support from the company.  However he IS now signing off G5 installs - I may just go that route - can't beat the backup functionality it offers for $3000.

 

On 10/9/2018 at 7:51 PM, LANCECASPER said:

And now that Garmin has blessed it as a backup I'd feel more comfortable with it. Plus if you ever go with the GFC500 you need a G5.

What I still find comical is the FAA's position on these backup devices. You can legally install a G5 as a primary AI, rip out your vacuum system and you're good to go. You can keep your vacuum AI and let the vacuum pump accumulate 1500 hours and you're still good to go. Yet, In a plane with an electric AHRS system, the backup needs special certification. I think anything that enhances the safety of flight through redundancy should be less stringent, not more.

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I wonder if Garmin just utilized the headway Dynon made with the D10A?  The D10A, G5, and E5 (soon) were all certified to replace the AI/DG but all other instruments must remain. The Dynon was able to slip the 10a in as the sole backup to the skyview. I’m guessing it was very easy for Garmin follow along. I’d assume the aspen E5 could also easily be certified to backup a pro1000 pfd if they wanted. However, aspen will resist that vs selling more expensive hardware. 

The real question is will the authorities allow the mixing of manufacturers for backup hardware?  I still think the G5/pro1000/edm900 would make for one clean panel. 

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It is interesting to note that Vacuum gyros do not require attitude backups like the Aspen and Garmin. I guess the Turn Coordinator and other steam gauges can serve as backup for vacuum gyros.

 

José

 

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21 hours ago, MIm20c said:

I wonder if Garmin just utilized the headway Dynon made with the D10A?  The D10A, G5, and E5 (soon) were all certified to replace the AI/DG but all other instruments must remain. The Dynon was able to slip the 10a in as the sole backup to the skyview. I’m guessing it was very easy for Garmin follow along. I’d assume the aspen E5 could also easily be certified to backup a pro1000 pfd if they wanted. However, aspen will resist that vs selling more expensive hardware. 

The real question is will the authorities allow the mixing of manufacturers for backup hardware?  I still think the G5/pro1000/edm900 would make for one clean panel. 

The reason that an Aspen couldn't back up an Aspen, and you needed a back-up attitude indicator even if you had two Aspens, was that one failure (loss of pitot static) would take out both units. The new Aspen Max has GPS-aided AHRS so loss of pitot static won't cause you to lose attitude - therefore the new Aspen can back up an Aspen.

As for the G5, it wasn't certified as a backup so Aspen couldn't update their STC and name it as an approved backup. Even though a year later Garmin has approved it as a back up for the Gxi, I doubt that Aspen will waste resources testing the G5 as a backup since they have their own solution (2 Aspen Max's) and third party solutions (electric or vacuum Attitude, l3 ESI-500, Sandia, etc.  At first it sounds strange that a G5 could be used as primary but not a backup, but makes sense if you think it through, that you want your backup to be fail safe if you lose your primary, more robust in different ways, such as separate electric source, etc. As an example a vacuum attitude backing up a vacuum attitude wouldn't a good situation if they were on the same vacuum pump.

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The reason that an Aspen couldn't back up an Aspen, and you needed a back-up attitude indicator even if you had two Aspens, was that one failure (loss of pitot static) would take out both units. The new Aspen Max has GPS-aided AHRS so loss of pitot static won't cause you to lose attitude - therefore the new Aspen can back up an Aspen.
As for the G5, it wasn't certified as a backup so Aspen couldn't update their STC and name it as an approved backup. Even though a year later Garmin has approved it as a back up for the Gxi, I doubt that Aspen will waste resources testing the G5 as a backup since they have their own solution (2 Aspen Max's) and third party solutions (electric or vacuum Attitude, l3 ESI-500, Sandia, etc.  At first it sounds strange that a G5 could be used as primary but not a backup, but makes sense if you think it through, that you want your backup to be fail safe if you lose your primary, more robust in different ways, such as separate electric source, etc. As an example a vacuum attitude backing up a vacuum attitude wouldn't a good situation if they were on the same vacuum pump.


You had me until the last portion. If you want your backup to be fail safe, what exactly is the fail safe when the G5 acts as a primary? If the G5 is acceptable to put all your eggs in one basket, why would it not be acceptable to be a backup to someone else’s basket?


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9 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 


You had me until the last portion. If you want your backup to be fail safe, what exactly is the fail safe when the G5 acts as a primary? If the G5 is acceptable to put all your eggs in one basket, why would it not be acceptable to be a backup to someone else’s basket?


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The g5 stc requires the retention of remaining 6 pack. A failure would be the same as a failed AI or vac pump.

@LANCECASPER the E5, similar to the max, does not fail to a black screen when the p/s is lost. I assume aspen will upgrade the certified backup (6k unit) to E5 specs when certified. Will they remove the limitation for backing up a aspen unit?...hard to know. 

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On 10/12/2018 at 10:15 AM, LANCECASPER said:

As for the G5, it wasn't certified as a backup so Aspen couldn't update their STC and name it as an approved backup. Even though a year later Garmin has approved it as a back up for the Gxi, I doubt that Aspen will waste resources testing the G5 as a backup since they have their own solution (2 Aspen Max's) and third party solutions (electric or vacuum Attitude, l3 ESI-500, Sandia, etc.  At first it sounds strange that a G5 could be used as primary but not a backup, but makes sense if you think it through, that you want your backup to be fail safe if you lose your primary, more robust in different ways, such as separate electric source, etc. As an example a vacuum attitude backing up a vacuum attitude wouldn't a good situation if they were on the same vacuum pump.

Does the Aspen STC actually name which electronic AIs can serve as backup for it? I've not been able to find any such a list. Or is it just a description of the properties a certified backup must have? Admittedly, I can't find that either.

In talking to my favored avionics shop owner, he described a recent conversation with Aspen folks where he was told that the G5 does meet Aspen's requirements, but Garmin chose not to include backing up Aspen in updating their G5 STC.  Despite that ambiguity, he seemed willing to do the install to backup my PFD after having been resistant to it previously.  I'm going to go ahead with it - enough respectable people have done it now that I'll have great company when I get in trouble.  

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the Aspen STC only says that the backup AI required must be approved by a separate source. It is not part of the Aspen STC.

So anything other than the OEM approved AI in the plane must have it's own source for installation under the desired configuration.

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@DXB I think the G5 is a great way to go.  As a backup AI I think it’s pretty widely accepted by many shops. The hard push would be using it for all three backup instruments if you only have a single aspen display.  Garmin certified it for its own displays but most likely will avoid the TSO’d classification to use as a backup. 

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15 hours ago, DXB said:

Does the Aspen STC actually name which electronic AIs can serve as backup for it? I've not been able to find any such a list. Or is it just a description of the properties a certified backup must have? Admittedly, I can't find that either.

In talking to my favored avionics shop owner, he described a recent conversation with Aspen folks where he was told that the G5 does meet Aspen's requirements, but Garmin chose not to include backing up Aspen in updating their G5 STC.  Despite that ambiguity, he seemed willing to do the install to backup my PFD after having been resistant to it previously.  I'm going to go ahead with it - enough respectable people have done it now that I'll have great company when I get in trouble.  

This is good information and the first part about Aspen backup requirement and list matches my research also.  Based on DXB's findings it seems that if you install the G5 the 337 should be worded quite carefully and mention how all the Aspen requirements are met.  For example, independent of Pitot Static system, backup battery meets requirements (there is a FAR for this),etc.  DXB if you go ahead with this would be wonderful if you could share your install 337.

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8 hours ago, gacoon said:

This is good information and the first part about Aspen backup requirement and list matches my research also.  Based on DXB's findings it seems that if you install the G5 the 337 should be worded quite carefully and mention how all the Aspen requirements are met.  For example, independent of Pitot Static system, backup battery meets requirements (there is a FAR for this),etc.  DXB if you go ahead with this would be wonderful if you could share your install 337.

Will do - I think @Cruiser's assessment is likely correct though.

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