81X

GFC500 Update

Recommended Posts

12 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Is there an annunciation that will come on if the yaw servo is holding a lot of rudder in for a long time?  The G1000/GFC700 Meridian I fly has electric rudder trim and yaw damper, however they are not connected.  Takeoff trim is 2-3 degrees right rudder.  When you transition from climb to cruise, you will get a trim caution until you trim it left.  I doubt they would just let the rudder trim servo sit there burning itself up?

Also, the Meridian has noticeable tail wag in a little turbulence with the YD off.  The YD makes it completely go away.  My midbody Mooney doesn’t have noticeable tail wag...  YD might be a tough sell for me.

There's no annunciation.  The data can be downloaded off the G5, which records data on almost everything imaginable.  I've attached a sample file to show what I mean.  The manual rudder trim does not interfere with the YD.

DATA_LOG.xls

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*Members that donate $10 or more do not see advertisements*

There's no annunciation.  The data can be downloaded off the G5, which records data on almost everything imaginable.  I've attached a sample file to show what I mean.  The manual rudder trim does not interfere with the YD.
DATA_LOG.xls

How do you get the G5 to log data?


Tom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:


How do you get the G5 to log data?


Tom

Put a microSD card of up to 32GB in the microSD Card Slot.  Data will be recorded for each flight as you can see from my data file.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Put a microSD card of up to 32GB in the microSD Card Slot.  Data will be recorded for each flight as you can see from my data file.

I assume there is a secret setting or something to turn it on?


Tom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Niko182 said:

I cant wait til i get to the point in life where i need to compare my mooney to my meridian

Well I just fly it, not mine.  It’s real nice, but my F model has more useful load left with full fuel, so there’s that.  I use to fly an F-15E, and I’d really miss that, except my F model fits the family much better and uses less runway.  All our planes are good...

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, donkaye said:

The Yaw Damper operation is not well documented.  Actually it's not documented at all except to say, "not to be used on takeoff and landing".  I have rudder trim and fully trim it right on takeoff.  Since the YD can be turned on independently of the AP, after takeoff in the climb, I turn it on.  Since even with full right rudder trim some right rudder needs to be held on takeoff, when the YD comes on some torque is apparently generated by the YD servo to try and hold the ball centered. The YD operates with inputs from yaw rate, roll angle, lateral acceleration, and airspeed.  Changing to level flight changes the forces on the rudder.  I disconnect the YD, the rudder pedals significantly move having been held in place by the YD servo.  I trim the rudder for level flight and then turn the YD back on.  I figure this means minimal torque will be constantly held by the YD servo.  Periodically, I'll turn the YD off and then back on to check if extra torque is being held by the YD.  In level flight it is not.  I try to stay out of turbulence for passenger comfort through proper preflight planning, but have gotten into moderate turbulence from time to time.   While subjective, the YD does make a difference.  In the shorter body Mooneys I would think it would make even more of a difference, since the arm for the stabilizing rudder is shorter.

The extra cost of the YD is small in comparison to its benefits in my opinion.  Just know that, while it is not a rudder trim, it will try and hold the ball centered in the climb.  Therefore, when you transition to level flight, turn it off, stabilize the airplane, then turn it back on.  For those who are flying or have flown the big iron (@Bob-S50), I'd be interested in knowing how the YD is handled in those aircraft.  With the Citation, I just remember turning it on right after takeoff and off before landing.

 

It's been over 4 years since I retired, but I don't remember having to turn on the yaw damper.  Either that or it was such a part of the normal flow that I didn't really have to think about it.  Never noticed any yawing in the DC9.  Worked pretty well in the 757-200 but not so much in the 757-300.  That plane was so long that the pilots could be feeling light turbulence up front and the back end would be whipping around so much that the flight attendants were experiencing moderate turbulence.  Sitting in the back and looking forward you could even see the fuselage bending and twisting.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:


I assume there is a secret setting or something to turn it on?


Tom

 It's been 4 months since I used it, but I think you just plug it in and it works automatically.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

It's been over 4 years since I retired, but I don't remember having to turn on the yaw damper.  Either that or it was such a part of the normal flow that I didn't really have to think about it.  Never noticed any yawing in the DC9.  Worked pretty well in the 757-200 but not so much in the 757-300.  That plane was so long that the pilots could be feeling light turbulence up front and the back end would be whipping around so much that the flight attendants were experiencing moderate turbulence.  Sitting in the back and looking forward you could even see the fuselage bending and twisting.

The C-130s I flew had a yaw damper...the pilots feet. 

The PC-12 has one, it is very useful for pilots that can't figure out what to do with their feet when power changes are made.  Makes for lazy pilots, but happy folks sitting in the back.

Now the Beech 400 is a different story, that plane Dutch rolls like it is its job.  I'm not sure I would fly that one with the YD inop, even though it is not required below FL280.

For planes I've flown, the YD was generally turned on shortly after the gear and flap were raised and turned off in the before landing checklist.  

On a side note it is very difficult to taxi with the YD engaged :unsure:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, kpaul said:

The C-130s I flew had a yaw damper...the pilots feet. 

The PC-12 has one, it is very useful for pilots that can't figure out what to do with their feet when power changes are made.  Makes for lazy pilots, but happy folks sitting in the back.

Now the Beech 400 is a different story, that plane Dutch rolls like it is its job.  I'm not sure I would fly that one with the YD inop, even though it is not required below FL280.

For planes I've flown, the YD was generally turned on shortly after the gear and flap were raised and turned off in the before landing checklist.  

On a side note it is very difficult to taxi with the YD engaged :unsure:

I used to ride frequently in corporate Embraer Legacy aircraft and wound up being racing friends with one of the pilots.   I mentioned that it was a little annoying to watch the wingtips constantly move in a slow circular motion.    He said that's known as the "Embraer Waltz".   It even had a name.  ;)     I never thought to ask whether they had a YD or not, I just got the impression that it was baked into the control system for whatever reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/10/2019 at 11:12 AM, bradp said:

@Bob - S50 did you do the yaw damper? @81X your J has it correct? 

I got my two final quotes that I’ve been comparing.  Both 16.5amu for three servos no yaw damper.  Both shops say it’s not needed.  I wanted to ask your advice for a med body before I commit to my feet on the pedals or on the floor.  

Yes, my K has the YD and I really like it for two main reasons- making the ride nicer in rough air and also keeping the ball centered during climbs in an airplane with no rudder trim. 

Who knows- maybe the YD will keep an airplane coordinated enough to avoid a base-final spin- purely speculating. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, donkaye said:

 It's been 4 months since I used it, but I think you just plug it in and it works automatically.

In the Device Information section of the configuration, make sure Diagnostics/Data Log is enabled

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, 201Mooniac said:

In the Device Information section of the configuration, make sure Diagnostics/Data Log is enabled

 

6 hours ago, 201Mooniac said:

In the Device Information section of the configuration, make sure Diagnostics/Data Log is enabled

Thanks for reminding me what I did, Adam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/9/2019 at 4:29 PM, donkaye said:

I hope another Bravo near me gets the GFC 500 soon.  While I love the unit, and other people say it flys an approach "on rails", mine flys it on rails alright, but the rails are attached to a shallow roller coaster.  The same thing occurs with turns greater than about 30° of heading.  The pitch trim just moves too fast resulting in some pitch oscillations.   Maybe it's my installation but all cable tensions have been checked as correct.

Some Beechcraft owners are also experiencing some of the same symptoms:

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=175326

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Decided we are going to pre-wire power lead for the YD and leave it out for now.  If I want it later on, will come back to it.  Shop says I really don’t need it and I probably agree.  However, use of a CAN bus means a pretty simple single servo upgrade / hardware interface once the brackets are in. Have never gotten a complaint about the ride from my rear seat pax siting 3 ft behind me.  Going under the knife in Feb.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, bradp said:

Decided we are going to pre-wire power lead for the YD and leave it out for now.  If I want it later on, will come back to it.  Shop says I really don’t need it and I probably agree.  

Go first class if money is not an issue.  Put the YD in now.  You'll be glad you did.  I really didn't think I would need it either, and maybe I don't, but when things get rough, or even the thought of it getting rough, the YD is REALLY nice to have.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@donkaye Just curious: How thoroughly have you explored all of the GFC-500's failure modes?  Do you know what it will do in virtually every kind of failure yet?  Would appreciate hearing any insights you've gained thus far as one of the first Mooney GFC-500 guinea pigs.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, ZuluZulu said:

@donkaye Just curious: How thoroughly have you explored all of the GFC-500's failure modes?  Do you know what it will do in virtually every kind of failure yet?  Would appreciate hearing any insights you've gained thus far as one of the first Mooney GFC-500 guinea pigs.  

The AFMS covers Emergency Procedures and Abnormal Procedures better than any of the Bendix/King manuals ever did.  I've attached a partial copy of the Table of Contents.  The unit also monitors itself, and with the "Smart Servos", when they disconnect, they totally disconnect unlike the old type servos.

While I'm glad I upgraded to the GFC 500, I have to say I am only about 85% satisfied with it.  While most functions like flying level work very well, one of the most important ones doesn't in my airplane.   It won't fly a stable approach, but instead mildly oscillates down either the ILS or GPS approaches with vertical guidance.  I've been hesitant to talk to Garmin about it because  they helped me so much getting it working when I first had it installed.  Most of the time it's an installation issue, and maybe that is the case with mine, but the fact that it flys perfect VNAV and V/S descents with no oscillation leads me to believe it is something more.  I have reached out to Trek from Garmin on this issue, but he has yet to respond.  I have not flown any other long body  airplane that has it installed, yet.  I have flown a J with it installed and it was perfect in all regards, so it may just be a long body issue or a "my airplane" issue.

GFC 500 Paartial Table of Contents Manual.png

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Might be on to something there Don.  Our J is perfect.  Some of the Bonanza people are seeing problems similar to yours and from what I hear Garmin is close to knowing what the issue is.  Sounded like a software update may eventually fix the problem for them and hopefully for you too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is your model? An M? Arent the J and M both mid bodies?

I have a K. I hope I dont have any issues. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, donkaye said:

The AFMS covers Emergency Procedures and Abnormal Procedures better than any of the Bendix/King manuals ever did.  I've attached a partial copy of the Table of Contents.  The unit also monitors itself, and with the "Smart Servos", when they disconnect, they totally disconnect unlike the old type servos.

While I'm glad I upgraded to the GFC 500, I have to say I am only about 85% satisfied with it.  While most functions like flying level work very well, one of the most important ones doesn't in my airplane.   It won't fly a stable approach, but instead mildly oscillates down either the ILS or GPS approaches with vertical guidance.  I've been hesitant to talk to Garmin about it because  they helped me so much getting it working when I first had it installed.  Most of the time it's an installation issue, and maybe that is the case with mine, but the fact that it flys perfect VNAV and V/S descents with no oscillation leads me to believe it is something more.  I have reached out to Trek from Garmin on this issue, but he has yet to respond.  I have not flown any other long body  airplane that has it installed, yet.  I have flown a J with it installed and it was perfect in all regards, so it may just be a long body issue or a "my airplane" issue.

GFC 500 Paartial Table of Contents Manual.png

If you would be interested, i will have the gfc500 installed in my eagle in about 2 months. Ill let you know the outcome of the project. I think behind the firewall, the eagle and bravo are practically the same. Im also in socal so about an hour and 40 minutes down from you.

Edited by Niko182

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, khedrei said:

What is your model? An M? Arent the J and M both mid bodies?

I have a K. I hope I dont have any issues. 

The J is a mid body.  I haven't flown a K Model with a KFC 500. Mine is an M and is a long body.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

If you would be interested, i will have the gfc500 installed in my eagle in about 2 months. Ill let you know the outcome of the project. I think behind the firewall, the eagle and bravo are practically the same. Im also in socal so about an hour and 40 minutes down from you.

I would definitely like to see how yours behaves, as the Eagle and Bravo are in the long body category.  Let me know when it's done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.