GFC500 Update

[khedrei]

If you enjoy flying VOR to VOR then have at 'er. I have a feeling you would quickly change your answer if GPS was down as often as you claim that it is.  The only way I'd fly IFR on victor airways is if I was ferrying a plane that was standard equipped. And that would be to bring it to a shop and have a GPS installed.

[LANCECASPER]

12 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

I was a bit harsh in my initial post.  Apologies.

I definitely agree that requiring GPS to fly a coupled ILS approach strikes me as... odd.  Especially when the GFC600 doesn't have that limitation. 

You weren't harsh at all - I agree with everything you said.

If you happen to point out a design flaw or a limitation of the Almighty Garmin, whose products I happen to like, it's equivalent to the punishment for heresy in the dark ages . . lol

[LANCECASPER]

33 minutes ago, khedrei said:

If you enjoy flying VOR to VOR then have at 'er. I have a feeling you would quickly change your answer if GPS was down as often as you claim that it is.  The only way I'd fly IFR on victor airways is if I was ferrying a plane that was standard equipped. And that would be to bring it to a shop and have a GPS installed.

Oh look another GPS outage in the email this morning. This one is from February 4-19.

 

[Andy95W]

36 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

 

If you happen to point out a design flaw or a limitation of the Almighty Garmin, whose products I happen to like, it's equivalent to the punishment for heresy in the dark ages . . lol

 

[LANCECASPER]

That’s one of the nicer things that’s been said . .lol

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

My point of view could easily be changed if Garmin engineered that limitation out the GFC500. They are a brilliant company - I just feel like they could have done better and worked that out before its release.

IMO it’s a race to gain as much market share as possible. It also sells a lot of full panel upgrades as well...Garmin units. Dribble out the upgrades keeps excitement/buying high. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by MIm20c

[Steve W]

Wait until the TruTrak, er BK whatever is approved for Mooney and you all can complain about a low cost autopilot that can't fly an ILS at all, or really any not-GPS navigation. (Even ignoring that it's not presently certified for approaches.)

[khedrei]

 

9 hours ago, Steve W said:

Wait until the TruTrak, er BK whatever is approved for Mooney and you all can complain about a low cost autopilot that can't fly an ILS at all, or really any not-GPS navigation. (Even ignoring that it's not presently certified for approaches.)

I thought it was certified for approaches but just not below 700 AGL? 

[khedrei]

10 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Oh look another GPS outage in the email this morning. This one is from February 4-19.

 

You can post as many GPS outages in various locations across the country as much as you want. You arent convincing anyone that it's a COMMON problem or that this auto pilot is in any way shape or form, a step backwards from a KFC150.

[Steve W]

11 minutes ago, khedrei said:

I thought it was certified for approaches but just not below 700 AGL? 

This is in addition to the 700 foot limit(from what appear to be the current TruTrak Certified AFMS):

- This autopilot has not been evaluated by the FAA to meet the certification requirements for coupled instrument procedures, including coupled approaches. Therefore, these types of procedures are not authorized without further evaluation and approval.

- After a GPS failure, the only lateral autopilot mode available is the BANK mode.

 

[eman1200]

10 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Oh look another GPS outage in the email this morning. This one is from February 4-19.

 

I really haven't been paying attention to this thread, but  >>> although I understand your point about the gps requirement of the autopilot <<<,  most of the massive amounts of gps outages you are trying to use to back up your point are for a few specific hours in a day, and TYPICALLY only affect a VERY small area under 4000'.  so while there may be 958,000,000,000 GPS outages per day, I spot checked 4 of them and none of them impacted anything below 4000' greater than about a 38nm center ring.  so essentially you have to be going into the one or two fields within that tiny ring to have any impact.  it doesn't really matter, I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm simply pointing out that the gps outages mostly impact no one doing an ILS approach.

[LANCECASPER]

30 minutes ago, khedrei said:

You can post as many GPS outages in various locations across the country as much as you want. You arent convincing anyone that it's a COMMON problem or that this auto pilot is in any way shape or form, a step backwards from a KFC150.

13 hours ago you said that GPS outages don't happen very often and you said that I was spreading BS. I was merely pointing out that they happen every week. I won't go so far as to say that you are spreading BS. 

[khedrei]

That's because I'm not. You on the other hand are. As pointed out by the poster above you. 

Keep digging. You arent making me look stupid. 

[LANCECASPER]

1 minute ago, khedrei said:

That's because I'm not. You on the other hand are. As pointed out by the poster above you. 

Keep digging. You arent making me look stupid. 

Thats true, you are doing a fine job of that all by yourself . . lol

[Niko182]

Its clear the relationship isn't working out. Have you considered relationship therapy? Maybe divorce might be the best option.

[khedrei]

Just now, LANCECASPER said:

Thats true, you are doing a fine job of that all by yourself . . lol

Yeah... I can tell by the fact that my posts arent getting any likes and by the fact that yours are getting so many. 

Also by the amount of people who disagree with me and by how many agree with you. 

The merits of your argument on your superior KFC 150 are so overwhelming that it's a wonder why no one can see it, including myself. 

I submit. You win. 

[gsxrpilot]

30 minutes ago, khedrei said:

Yeah... I can tell by the fact that my posts arent getting any likes and by the fact that yours are getting so many. 

Also by the amount of people who disagree with me and by how many agree with you. 

The merits of your argument on your superior KFC 150 are so overwhelming that it's a wonder why no one can see it, including myself. 

I submit. You win. 

There is in fact, a reputation score for each member of this forum. Stick around for a few years, contribute positively to the community with quality posts and you might actually build a positive reputation.  At the moment the score is 54 to 2811... so not exactly close.

[LANCECASPER]

48 minutes ago, khedrei said:

Yeah... I can tell by the fact that my posts arent getting any likes and by the fact that yours are getting so many. 

Also by the amount of people who disagree with me and by how many agree with you. 

The merits of your argument on your superior KFC 150 are so overwhelming that it's a wonder why no one can see it, including myself. 

I submit. You win. 

I'm not trying to win but when someone says that GPS outages don't happen very often and the government sends out notices that show they happen every week, I'm going to express my opinion. 

In no way do I think 27 year old autopilot is superior overall to a new digital Garmin GFC500. As I mentioned 12 hours ago. . .  the GFC500 is a fine autopilot, but no box is perfect. They all have limitations. I was merely pointing out a limitation or a design compromise that I personally would not be willing to live with. If some people are fine with that limitation, great, that's their choice. Garmin certainly has the resources to solve that limitation, but since the GFC500 is selling well they don't see a reason to do so. 

When the GFC500 was announced I was excited about it since it has several features that I don't have on my KFC150 that I would like to have. In fact in the second quarter of 2018 I signed an agreement with Garmin to use my airplane to certify the GFC500 until I learned about the GPS outage limitation buried on page 3-6 of the Flight Manual Supplement and nowhere on their description or specs. 

I decided to withdraw the use of my airplane and they took another long body Mooney to use and I ended up putting three Aspens in my airplane instead of two G5s. Since then I have offered my airplane if they ever decide to certify the GFC600 for Mooneys since it doesn't have that limitation (see below) and it plays well with Aspens.

I doubt that the long body Mooneys are a big enough market for the certification of the GFC600, but who knows? I understand that if someone's legacy autopilot is dying then that changes things and they may want to act sooner instead of pouring money into an older unit. But my airplane only has a little over 700 hours total time and the KFC150 flies very well so I'm in no rush to pull it out until I get the autopilot that I want.

 

[carusoam]

Summary...

1) It’s a Tuesday and the posts are edgy...

2) Ownership allows the lowest cost of operations...  house or plane...own enough houses, that becomes a job... a good paying job.   (Go DK, I’ve learned so much through the years)

3) GPS outages happen often, intentionally... in some places...

4) Some planes have been known to cause their own GPS outage over the years... signal interference or loss of antenna...

5) Some people with a high CB status have been known to fly Victor highways to save on the database updates... not all GPS(s) have WAAS vertical guidance...

6) One AP has limitations for coupled ILS approaches... the next version up doesn’t...

7) The CB solution for the day... hand fly the ILS, if the GPS has lost its signal?

8) My BK KLN90B requires checking The GPS signal prior to using it for an approach...

9) Being friendly always counts... sometimes, it is possible to misunderstand what somebody has typed...

10) Sometimes it takes a second editing before their ideas are in place...

Go MS!

Its Wednesday already!

Best regards,

-a-

[MIm20c]

2 hours ago, khedrei said:

Yeah... I can tell by the fact that my posts arent getting any likes and by the fact that yours are getting so many. 

I submit. You win. 

Don’t give in!  Little bit of an old boys’ club around here with regards to “likes”. Me? I just give them hell and use likes to calm the situation before ignition. 
 

Many of the heated discussions on MS can be traced back to Aspen vs Garmin owners...this recent bout is no different. 
 

@LANCECASPER I’m still very curious how many times your certified gps notified you of a signal loss during your recent flight. 

[LANCECASPER]

4 hours ago, MIm20c said:

Don’t give in!  Little bit of an old boys’ club around here with regards to “likes”. Me? I just give them hell and use likes to calm the situation before ignition. 
 

Many of the heated discussions on MS can be traced back to Aspen vs Garmin owners...this recent bout is no different. 
 

@LANCECASPER I’m still very curious how many times your certified gps notified you of a signal loss during your recent flight. 

The IFD550 gave a "degraded" caution when I flew from the airpark where I live to meet my instructor 13 miles away in T82. After he landed we had lunch and he said that flying from KLUD down to T82 he had the same message and Fort Worth center told him that there was unscheduled GPS testing (no NOTAMS) in central Texas. When we filed and got our clearance before we departed T82 they said that the GPS approaches weren't available that he had put in the comments section, however the degraded message didn't come back up on the Avidyne. Later after we flew the LOC and VOR into Kerrville he asked if the RNAV was available and they gave it to us so we flew one into KERV and one into T82. So to answer your question it came up once but even for awhile after that ATC wasn't giving GPS approaches.

[MIm20c]

Very good info. I wonder if degraded means lost waas or is down a few satellites?  Also curious if the ifd or gtn would allow a lpv or non precision gps approach in that mode. Third question, and obviously where I was headed, at what point of degradation does the gfc kick out of coupled mode?

[Shadow]

On 2/1/2020 at 10:01 AM, Ragsf15e said:

Has anyone actually had a gps outage in the terminal area/altitude of an ils equipped airport?  Outage areas expand with altitude, so that would mean the jamming is very close to the airfield.

It's happened to me, maybe 2-3 nm outside of the Delta. I was on a visual approach at the end of an IFR flight.

Specific to your question, though, there was not an ILS at this particular airfield.

[bradp]

I lost RAIM and GPS signal on the RNAV to BCB in a rented 172 once for real (not interference but reception from an unplanned outage).
 

I live near Cherry Point / Lejeune / Bragg / Pope.  They do a lot of GPS interference testing.  I haven’t had issues with interference so far. If I’m IFR and IMC flying a coupled approach and lose my autopilot 1) becomes a hand flying exercise and 2) if I want my AP back because of workload I say “stop buzzer” or whatever on 121.5 under PIC authority. 

[johncuyle]

On 1/31/2020 at 6:10 PM, gsxrpilot said:

I'm never been crazy about the requirement to have a G5 to go with the GFC500. I realize another option is the G3X, but I think it still has to have a backup AI of some sort.  I like the revisionary option of the Aspens. I don't have to have any screen that is there solely as a backup. But rather I have screens that are all useful, but can become an emergency back up when needed.

 

Dual or triple 7" G3X?  Two on the left, one on the right?  They added the ability to configure a screen as a copilot display, so assuming it all fits you could have attitude plus SV on one G3X, a moving map on the other, and the third one on the right configured as a copilot display, with two failovers.  If I had unlimited money, this is probably what I'd want.  Sadly...