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GFC500 Update


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My long body M20S was having the same glide path pitch oscillation as Don's Bravo. 

PMAX has solved the problem. There was a slight sticky spot in the yoke when the elevator was close to the neutral position. The yoke shafts and guide blocks were cleaned and lubricated. Every moving part in the elevator control system was inspected and lubricated. The yokes then moved smoothly with no sticky spots. After that, I flew three approaches (two RNAV and an ILS) and the autopilot tracked the GP/GS perfectly.  

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49 minutes ago, k8n said:

My long body M20S was having the same glide path pitch oscillation as Don's Bravo. 

PMAX has solved the problem. There was a slight sticky spot in the yoke when the elevator was close to the neutral position. The yoke shafts and guide blocks were cleaned and lubricated. Every moving part in the elevator control system was inspected and lubricated. The yokes then moved smoothly with no sticky spots. After that, I flew three approaches (two RNAV and an ILS) and the autopilot tracked the GP/GS perfectly.  

 

Yes, I'm putting the Maxwells (Don and Paul) in the genius category.  I didn't think such a simple solution to the oscillation issue would work on my plane, especially since I hadn't really noticed any "sticking" with my yoke.  So, over to Top Gun I went yesterday, and the yokes and attachments were generously lubricated.  The yokes haven't moved that smoothly since I can remember.  I, too, then went up, and flew 4 approaches, 1 ILS and 3 RNAVs, and to my surprise there was no oscillation on the glide paths.  I tried them both fast and slow with the same positive result.  I'm going to reserve total judgment for another 10 or 20 approaches, but it does look like the issue is resolved.  Any long body and for that matter any Mooney should make sure their yokes are lubricated if installing a GFC 500.

 

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[mention=7354]donkaye[/mention] was it you who said you also had problems with the nose hunting in the IAS mode of GFC500?

If so can you try that again now that you've had this lube job? if that's also fixed I guess I'm gonna get that same lube job!

Just get some triflo off Amazon and hit the shaft a bit. I'd consider it routine mx. Did both my shafts this summer and they're like butter.

 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, PJClark said:

@donkaye was it you who said you also had problems with the nose hunting in the IAS mode of GFC500?

If so can you try that again now that you've had this lube job? if that's also fixed I guess I'm gonna get that same lube job!

It was Andy Rutherford who said it. His plane was used in the certification process.  I'll try an IAS climb the next time I go flying and let you know.  

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31 minutes ago, NJMac said:

Just get some triflo off Amazon and hit the shaft a bit. I'd consider it routine mx. Did both my shafts this summer and they're like butter.

Lube the shaft for the butter feeling.   This seems familiar.

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59 minutes ago, donkaye said:

It was Andy Rutherford who said it. His plane was used in the certification process.  I'll try an IAS climb the next time I go flying and let you know.  

I have seen no problems with IAS climbs - before or after the sticky yoke fix. 

Edited by k8n
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/9/2019 at 2:29 PM, donkaye said:

I hope another Bravo near me gets the GFC 500 soon.  While I love the unit, and other people say it flys an approach "on rails", mine flys it on rails alright, but the rails are attached to a shallow roller coaster.  The same thing occurs with turns greater than about 30° of heading.  The pitch trim just moves too fast resulting in some pitch oscillations.   Maybe it's my installation but all cable tensions have been checked as correct.

Well, that may be happening.  Just today, my KFC 150 just stopped working and wouldn't restart. :o Could be fixable, but  I think it could have bought the farm. So yes im now looking at upgrading to a GFC 500. In looking at the demo videos, they talk about it with a Garmin G5. My question would be, is it required to add a G5 which I don't need just to buy a GFC 500? Hoping that it will work with my Garmin G500 Txi and GTN 750. If it doesn't, and  I need to upgrade to a new system or add a G5 to get it,  Ill be looking for a rebuilt KFC 150 or something similar that will continue to integrate from someone who doesn't need it anymore.

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Just now, JohnB said:

Well, that may be happening.  Just today, my KFC 150 just stopped working and wouldn't restart. :o Could be fixable, but  I think it could have bought the farm. So yes im now looking at upgrading to a GFC 500. In looking at the demo videos, they talk about it with a Garmin G5. My question would be, is it required to add a G5 which I don't need just to buy a GFC 500? Hoping that it will work with my Garmin G500 Txi and GTN 750. If it doesn't, and  I need to upgrade to a new system or add a G5 to get it,  Ill be looking for a rebuilt KFC 150 or something similar that will continue to integrate from someone who doesn't need it anymore.

The GFC-500 still needs the G5 to drive the GFC-500. I don't like it either because I have a ESI-500, which does literally everything and  which I consider a superior backup over a G5. 

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1 hour ago, kortopates said:

The GFC-500 still needs the G5 to drive the GFC-500. I don't like it either because I have a ESI-500, which does literally everything and  which I consider a superior backup over a G5. 

Actually there are a number of good things to the G5.  Auto baro adjustment from the TXi; Density Altitude display when on the ground without paging through a number of data screens on the GTNs; OAT; TAS; GS, altitude preselect; flight director display.  It doesn't have SVT, but that isn't necessary.  I had it on the ESI 500, but really didn't use it.  I hated to give up the ESI 500, but the G5 turns out to be better for my application.  You can get good money for it, as you can for the KFC 150 servos and KC 192, although your computer may be bad, so I wouldn't sell it.  John, I  wouldn't put any money into the KFC 150.  Now that mine is working as it should (have the installer make sure to lube all controls and the yoke), there is no comparison between it and the KFC 150.  BTW, the heart of the GFC 500 is software in the G5 and the GSA 28 servos.

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2 hours ago, JohnB said:

Well, that may be happening.  Just today, my KFC 150 just stopped working and wouldn't restart. :o Could be fixable, but  I think it could have bought the farm. So yes im now looking at upgrading to a GFC 500. In looking at the demo videos, they talk about it with a Garmin G5. My question would be, is it required to add a G5 which I don't need just to buy a GFC 500? Hoping that it will work with my Garmin G500 Txi and GTN 750. If it doesn't, and  I need to upgrade to a new system or add a G5 to get it,  Ill be looking for a rebuilt KFC 150 or something similar that will continue to integrate from someone who doesn't need it anymore.

You could always put the G5 on the other side for copilot instruments. That’s my current thinking with a txi and two G5’s set up in AI configuration.  One for backup on the pilot side and one for the copilot. 664FFA21-BD07-47E2-AFE1-2A2FBDAB90F3.thumb.jpeg.4cccd02192bdcd075bd36ba183acb9ad.jpeg

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32 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

You could always put the G5 on the other side for copilot instruments. That’s my current thinking with a txi and two G5’s set up in AI configuration.  One for backup on the pilot side and one for the copilot. 664FFA21-BD07-47E2-AFE1-2A2FBDAB90F3.thumb.jpeg.4cccd02192bdcd075bd36ba183acb9ad.jpeg

Not a good idea in my opinion.  The real altitude of the plane for GFC 500 purposes is shown on the G5 not the TXi.  My TXi  is off 30 feet.  I'm going try and get it closer, but in the final analysis the G5 is the correct altitude for the GFC 500..

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2 hours ago, kortopates said:

The GFC-500 still needs the G5 to drive the GFC-500. I don't like it either because I have a ESI-500, which does literally everything and  which I consider a superior backup over a G5. 

A big +1 on that one! Rats, I was afraid that it required a G5.  I was hoping there was a fix around this, as I have an aspen for my backup solution which I absolutely love, and the G5 comes no where near its capabilities. So in order to get this new autopilot, I would have to buy ANOTHER backup instrument on the opposite side of my panel. Poop! Think theres a conspiracy to force the use of a G5 backup, and once you have one, you need two. yikes.

 

59 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Actually there are a number of good things to the G5.  Auto baro adjustment from the TXi; Density Altitude display when on the ground without paging through a number of data screens on the GTNs; OAT; TAS; GS, altitude preselect; flight director display.  It doesn't have SVT, but that isn't necessary.  I had it on the ESI 500, but really didn't use it.  I hated to give up the ESI 500, but the G5 turns out to be better for my application.  You can get good money for it, as you can for the KFC 150 servos and KC 192, although your computer may be bad, so I wouldn't sell it.  John, I  wouldn't put any money into the KFC 150.  Now that mine is working as it should (have the installer make sure to lube all controls and the yoke), there is no comparison between it and the KFC 150.  BTW, the heart of the GFC 500 is software in the G5 and the GSA 28 servos.

See panel, even if I did want to downgrade my Aspen Backup to a G5 (which I don't) I would have to buy G5 x 2, and redo my panel completely, or get a third attitude indicator (G5) and put it on the copilots side. That I think would be excessive redundancy. Still hoping theres some solution that doesn't involve getting a G5 or re-doing my entire panel. . Also, hearing your roller coaster problems, not jumping up and down over the GFC 500 yet.

 

I did hear of a Bendix King autopilot, which is apparently a slide in replacement for the KFC 150, the Aerocruze 230, that does NOT require you to buy a G5 and is approved for our aircraft.  Anyone heard anything about this one? 

https://www.bendixking.com/en/products/aerocruze-230

Panel Day TXi.jpg

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2 hours ago, JohnB said:

I did hear of a Bendix King autopilot, which is apparently a slide in replacement for the KFC 150, the Aerocruze 230, that does NOT require you to buy a G5 and is approved for our aircraft.  Anyone heard anything about this one? 

https://www.bendixking.com/en/products/aerocruze-230

$10,000 and you still have the legendary King Servos and their Legendary overhaul costs, along with no indication yet of what attitude sources it can use except the KI-300.... Yea, I'll pass.

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3 minutes ago, Steve W said:

$10,000 and you still have the legendary King Servos and their Legendary overhaul costs, along with no indication yet of what attitude sources it can use except the KI-300.... Yea, I'll pass.

I looked on Beechtalk and no one yet that I see has put this one in. Customer service appears suboptimal. Well plarp. Looks like I might just have to get my 150 fixed, or get 3 attitude indicators and the GFC 500 if there's no other option for upgrade available.

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24 minutes ago, Steve W said:

$10,000 and you still have the legendary King Servos and their Legendary overhaul costs, along with no indication yet of what attitude sources it can use except the KI-300.... Yea, I'll pass.

I downloaded the PIlot's Guide.  John, if this isn't vaporware (didn't realized it got STC'd for the M model last October), it looks like it can accept all information from Garmin's air data computer, AHARS, GTN, and GDU 620 (which probably means the GDU 1060 of the G500 TXi).  If so, then this certainly seems to be the least expensive way to go for your setup.  It bothers me that I haven't hear a thing about this over the past several months.  Can you get it now?  Who is Aerospace Design and Compliance LLC?  Actually, this seems too good to be true, but....

Regarding the GFC 500, why would you need 2 G5s?  One under the Aspen should do it.  The Aspen would be off by itself with no input from the GFC 500.  The  interface would be to the TXi.

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2 minutes ago, JohnB said:

I looked on Beechtalk and no one yet that I see has put this one in. Customer service appears suboptimal. Well plarp. Looks like I might just have to get my 150 fixed, or get 3 attitude indicators and the GFC 500 if there's no other option for upgrade available.

The problem with the plane rocking up and down on approach was solved. Just need to lube the pushrods. As for the gfc500 vs kfc230, the gfc500 is cheaper, and most importantly, real. Mine is done in hopefully less than a month, and i will report back on it when its done. After all the parts required for the kfc230, it was shown that it was somewhere around 18k instead of the given parts, and that didnt include labor. My gfc500 installed is 16.5k without the yaw damper. 

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9 minutes ago, donkaye said:

I downloaded the PIlot's Guide.  John, if this isn't vaporware (didn't realized it got STC'd for the M model last October), it looks like it can accept all information from Garmin's air data computer, AHARS, and GDU 620 (which probably means the GDU 1060 of the G500 TXi).  If so, then this certainly seems to be the least expensive way to go for your setup.  It bothers me that I haven't hear a thing about this over the past several months.  Can you get it now?

Regarding the GFC 500, why would you need 2 G5s?  One under the Aspen should do it.  The Aspen would be off by itself with no input from the GFC 500.  The  interface would be to the TXi.

Wow, thanks Don! I did just put in an inquiry regarding the AeroCruz 230, ill see what they say. Hmmm not sure a G5 would fit under my Aspen, but if it could, that would save some costs if also GFC 500 unit will fit where my KFC did. Only 2 G5's would come  somewhat close to matching some of the Aspen's functionality, which I don't want to swap out my backup system.  Question for you sir.....  When you got your GFC 500 installed, are you using the controls on the GFC 500 to change and set altitude and courses, or are you still using your remote garmin PFD controller? Or can you use both/ either?

Im still hoping that its something simple and my 150 can be fixed, I just read about a switch failure for some of the KFC 150 autopilots, which sounds like it could be the problem with mine since it just suddenly went out when a load was applied (I think I turned on a light or something similar and the autopilot went poof) .. I can always hope!

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12 minutes ago, JohnB said:

Question for you sir.....  When you got your GFC 500 installed, are you using the controls on the GFC 500 to change and set altitude and courses, or are you still using your remote garmin PFD controller? Or can you use both/ either?

 

Except for the Baro, I mostly use the Mode Controller of the GFC 500.  The TXi and GCU can set altitudes, VS, IAS, but can't arm VS or IAS.  Preselecting the Altitude automatically arms it.

John, it looks like your 430 would need to move right to accommodate the GFC 500 Mode Controller, which is taller than the KC 192 of the KFC 150.

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48 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

The problem with the plane rocking up and down on approach was solved. Just need to lube the pushrods. As for the gfc500 vs kfc230, the gfc500 is cheaper, and most importantly, real. Mine is done in hopefully less than a month, and i will report back on it when its done. After all the parts required for the kfc230, it was shown that it was somewhere around 18k instead of the given parts, and that didnt include labor. My gfc500 installed is 16.5k without the yaw damper. 

Thanks Niko! Looking forward to your update.  the KFC does seem virtual, Ill see if I hear from anyone. You may see my plane over at SNA soon!

5 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Except for the Baro, I mostly use the Mode Controller of the GFC 500.  The TXi and GCU can set altitudes, VS, IAS, but can't arm VS or IAS.  Preselecting the Altitude automatically arms it.

John, it looks like your 430 would need to move right to accommodate the GFC 500 Mode Controller, which is taller than the KC 192 of the KFC 150.

Thanks good to know I don't need to make space for the Garmin PFD controller (which btw won't fit under my Aspen) . Moving my 430 right would be definitely something Id have to get used to as I use that quite a bit. 

Thanks again everyone, this is such a good forum with so much useful information from you all. 

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Certainly having to buy ANOTHER garmin box just so their ap works for me is annoying.
Andrew

You could always buy the GFC 600, it doesn’t require the G5..but it’s more expensive than both the GFC500+G5.
They leverage the functionality of the G5 to make the GFC500 simpler and cheaper...but there is no free lunch.



Tom
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9 hours ago, donkaye said:

Not a good idea in my opinion.  The real altitude of the plane for GFC 500 purposes is shown on the G5 not the TXi.  My TXi  is off 30 feet.  I'm going try and get it closer, but in the final analysis the G5 is the correct altitude for the GFC 500..

Interesting. If there was two G5’s it would probably just pick one and fly/display that one. But with the txi, even though it syncs the baro, the AP just listens to the g5. IMO the txi should be the primary and trump the g5 for altitude preselect. I wonder if the g3x/g5 combo has this problem?

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4 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:


You could always buy the GFC 600, it doesn’t require the G5..but it’s more expensive than both the GFC500+G5.
They leverage the functionality of the G5 to make the GFC500 simpler and cheaper...but there is no free lunch.



Tom

Is the GFC600 STC'ed available for any Mooneys?

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