GFC500 Update

[Bob - S50]

Not that I'm a stalker or anything, but it looks like the J/K testbed for the GFC500 is on the way home.  Looks to my uneducated eyes like Garmin is done with testing for our J/K models.  I hope that means we will be added to the supported list soon (a month?).

I'll expect a full report from the owner on how he likes the way it flies.

[81X]

I will report nothing and keep you all in suspense  

 

(first impressions and panel porn to be provided later today)  

 

 

[smccray]

7 hours ago, 81X said:

I will report nothing and keep you all in suspense  

 

(first impressions and panel porn to be provided later today)  

 

 

 

 

[81X]

2 hours ago, smccray said:

 

 

Posted a new topic in General Mooney talk.  I'll save you all the 10 minutes of reading- it's awesome.  

[smccray]

Like I’m not going to read it 10 times and drool on the photos.

[Bob - S50]

A bit premature, but here are a couple numbers you might want to squirrel away since they are different than you will find in the AFMS.  This comes from a Garmin rep who responded to my question on Beechtalk.

 

At least for the J model (not sure about the K but I assume it is the same):

 

The AFMS says that if the AP is coupled and the speed drops below 80 KIAS you will get an Underspeed warning and the AP will pitch down to regain airspeed.  The actual number is going to be 69 KIAS.  So the slowest speed you can fly on final with the AP coupled will be 69 KIAS.  I plan to fly a bit faster than that to avoid unanticipated nose down pitch.

 

The AFMS also says that ESP (stability protection) will kick in if you have: climbed above 500 AGL, are still above 200 AGL, are hand flying (AP not engaged) and the speed drops below 75 KIAS.  If that happens the pitch servo will apply a pitch down force to regain airspeed.  The actual number will be 65 KIAS.  That means you'll need to keep your speed above 65 KIAS until under 200 AGL to avoid an unanticipated nose down pitch force.  Shouldn't be too much of a problem.  However, it could be.  If I am flying solo and landing with less than 35 gallons, I'd be shooting for a speed less than 65 KIAS on final.  I'll have to make sure I'm under 200 AGL (probably about 1/2 mile final) before I slow to my final speed.  So I'm going to start practicing using 70 KIAS on final until inside 1/2 mile and then slow to my final speed.

 

The other option will be to disable ESP prior to entering the pattern.  You will be able to do that with the G5.  Push the knob, rotate to select ESP, push to disable.  ESP will automatically return to enabled when power is cycled on the G5, so if you want it off you'll have to do that on every flight.

[ArtVandelay]

Since 200’ will be the minimum, why not practice flying approaches at that speed until 200’ and slow down from there?
If you pull throttle to idle with gear extended I’m sure you can slow down to any speed you want.


Tom

[201Mooniac]

For those interested in a GFC-500, the AFMS is now available on Garmin's website for the J&K models.  http://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-02291-20_02.pdf

[aviatoreb]

43 minutes ago, 201Mooniac said:

For those interested in a GFC-500, the AFMS is now available on Garmin's website for the J&K models.  http://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-02291-20_02.pdf

But that doesn’t mean it’s svailable to install yet?

[201Mooniac]

2 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

But that doesn’t mean it’s svailable to install yet?

Not yet, they now need to produce the kits.  Rumor is the end of the month for availability.  I'm scheduled for the middle of June for an install.

[flyingcheesehead]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

But that doesn’t mean it’s svailable to install yet?

The R model AFMS was definitely on their site before everything was ready to install. I don't know when it was put up, but it was technically added to the STC AML in January. I saw the AFMS on the site in early March (and it may well have been there since January, that's just when I happened to notice it) and then they officially announced it a week or two ago.

I would be really surprised if they didn't have it shipping by Oshkosh.

[81X]

On 3/30/2019 at 3:10 PM, ArtVandelay said:

Since 200’ will be the minimum, why not practice flying approaches at that speed until 200’ and slow down from there?
If you pull throttle to idle with gear extended I’m sure you can slow down to any speed you want.


Tom

I just shot an ILS to minimums (close enough) at KCHO in actual yesterday, and that GFC500 held everything rock stable all the way down.  

No problem whatsoever slowing down and turning off in less than 3000 ft after breaking out at at 250 AGL at 100kt.  I’m a prop full forward on approach/ in the pattern kind of guy and that plus the gear are pretty effective short final speed brakes.  

 

[81X]

On 4/1/2019 at 9:17 PM, 201Mooniac said:

Not yet, they now need to produce the kits.  Rumor is the end of the month for availability.  I'm scheduled for the middle of June for an install.

You’ll love it. Get the YD if you can afford it. 

[201Mooniac]

3 hours ago, 81X said:

You’ll love it. Get the YD if you can afford it. 

I plan to, looks like the shop wants to move me up to May 23, they hope to be able to get the kits in house by then.

[donkaye]

On 4/7/2019 at 9:09 PM, 201Mooniac said:

I plan to, looks like the shop wants to move me up to May 23, they hope to be able to get the kits in house by then.

What shop are you using?

[M016576]

On 3/30/2019 at 8:58 AM, Bob - S50 said:

The AFMS also says that ESP (stability protection) will kick in if you have: climbed above 500 AGL, are still above 200 AGL, are hand flying (AP not engaged) and the speed drops below 75 KIAS.  If that happens the pitch servo will apply a pitch down force to regain airspeed.  The actual number will be 65 KIAS.  That means you'll need to keep your speed above 65 KIAS until under 200 AGL to avoid an unanticipated nose down pitch force. 

What about roll/angle of bank?  Is the ESP strictly airspeed driven, or does it use an angle of attack (digitally derived or otherwise?)

my hope is it’s angle of attack driven - and corrects for roll and pitch, to avoid accelerated stalls in the weather as well.... Out of all the simulators I’ve watched and students I’ve flown with in IMC  that have become disoriented to the point of getting close to stall- I’m struggling to think of a time where the aircraft was wings level.

Im sure the autopilot corrects for angle of bank AND pitch- just curious how it derives it’s stall margin data.

I bet the test flights for that system were a lot of fun!

[Bob - S50]

6 hours ago, M016576 said:

What about roll/angle of bank?  Is the ESP strictly airspeed driven, or does it use an angle of attack (digitally derived or otherwise?)

my hope is it’s angle of attack driven - and corrects for roll and pitch, to avoid accelerated stalls in the weather as well.... Out of all the simulators I’ve watched and students I’ve flown with in IMC  that have become disoriented to the point of getting close to stall- I’m struggling to think of a time where the aircraft was wings level.

Im sure the autopilot corrects for angle of bank AND pitch- just curious how it derives it’s stall margin data.

I bet the test flights for that system were a lot of fun!

I don't remember reading anything about bank angle.  I think the ESP system is just designed for those cases went you either forget to add power when needed, or ham fist it and pull the nose up too high for the available power.

When in doubt, let go of the yoke and push the blue LVL button.

[JimB]

I'm guessing the ESP is using bank and pitch angle from the G5 as well as airspeed. It does have protection from stalls and excessive bank

 

[201Mooniac]

8 hours ago, donkaye said:

What shop are you using?

Pacific Coast Avionics

[toto]

1 hour ago, Bob - S50 said:

I don't remember reading anything about bank angle.  I think the ESP system is just designed for those cases went you either forget to add power when needed, or ham fist it and pull the nose up too high for the available power.

When in doubt, let go of the yoke and push the blue LVL button.

ESP definitely considers bank angle as well. You can't do steep turns in training without disabling ESP, or you'll feel the AP pushing back when you roll in. 

[Bob - S50]

2 hours ago, toto said:

ESP definitely considers bank angle as well. You can't do steep turns in training without disabling ESP, or you'll feel the AP pushing back when you roll in. 

True.  What the old guy meant to say is I don't think it considers G loading.  I think it looks at pitch and bank independently.  So if you are in a base turn, as long as the pitch and bank stay within prescribed limits, I don't think the system will increase the speed at which it starts to unload the nose.  If you are on base and try to bank beyond 45 degrees, it will try to nudge you back to less than 30 degrees regardless of the G loading.  If you allow the nose to drop too far, it will try to pull the nose up regardless of your bank.  If you get below the 65 knot speed it will try to lower the nose regardless of your bank or pitch attitude.  All this of course, assuming you are still within the system limits of +/- 50 degrees of pitch and +/- 75 degrees of bank (pretty big envelope).

If I remember right, the person I responded to was wondering if it might reduce base turn stall/spin accidents.  I don't think it will.  And remember, it turns off below 200 AGL (as determined by the GPS AGL calculation). 

What it will do is help keep you from getting into grossly unusual attitudes while IMC.  And the LVL button will bring you back to straight and level if you get disoriented.  But in the traffic pattern I don't think the system is meant to save you from anything other than getting too slow either on initial climb or a long(ish) final.

[johncuyle]

2 hours ago, 201Mooniac said:

Pacific Coast Avionics

Looking forward to a review of your install.  I filled out their quote form a couple days ago (asking about a 2020 install since I assume they're booked through EOY) and am waiting to hear back.  Never used them before, but they come well recommended.

[201Mooniac]

1 hour ago, johncuyle said:

Looking forward to a review of your install.  I filled out their quote form a couple days ago (asking about a 2020 install since I assume they're booked through EOY) and am waiting to hear back.  Never used them before, but they come well recommended.

Happy to provide a pirep when they are done.  I've had them do 3 previous large install jobs and have alwaysw been very satisfied.  They aren't the cheapest but the work quality has always been high and they deliver on schedule.

[Jerry 5TJ]

3 minutes ago, 201Mooniac said:

Happy to provide a pirep when they are done.  I've had them do 3 previous large install jobs and have alwaysw been very satisfied.  They aren't the cheapest but the work quality has always been high and they deliver on schedule.

I am participating in an install of a GFC500 in a C182.   Will document anything "interesting" that comes up and post it for our delectation.

 

[aviatoreb]

36 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I am participating in an install of a GFC500 in a C182.   Will document anything "interesting" that comes up and post it for our delectation.

 

DO you also have a C182?

I would love to hear your comments on costs, hours, and also if that C182 had a previous autopilot and how its removal adds to the cost of install.