Help with KSNA ground operation

[M20S Driver]

I had to convert my Mooney to cargo configuration  to move my son to UC Irvine from the Bay Area.  I was not worried about the LAX airspace since I got my ticket at Torrance 25+ years ago and have flown to the area a few times a year.  I am used to flying close to big guys (jets) since I flew out of KSJC for many years, but I was amazed at the complexity of the taxing to Atlantic and taxing for takeoff.  It took 10-15 minutes to take off or get to Atlantic after landing.  

I will be going to KSNA frequently for the next few years.  I would appreciate any advice how to navigate the complexity of the ground operation or  advice on getting in and out of KSNA.

[Niko182]

Most likely they'll send you to 20L unless you're on an IFR flight plan. Just contact ground and usually they clear you directly to Atlantic via Hotel Alpha. if you're leaving from atlantic, ask for midfield run up, which is the run up most people use on the east side of the field. Ground operations are pretty straight forward at john Wayne, and in my experience, its never taken me longer than 3 minutes to get from the end of runway 20L to my tiedown spot at the southwest side of the airfield on the opposite side of the main runway(20R). Taxiways are wide enought for 2 way traffic, except when you have an airbus or boeing taxiing from the end of the runway to the gates. controllers deal with a lot of students at that airport so be straight forward, and they'll help without an issue.

[M20S Driver]

23 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

Most likely they'll send you to 20L unless you're on an IFR flight plan. Just contact ground and usually they clear you directly to Atlantic via Hotel Alpha. if you're leaving from atlantic, ask for midfield run up, which is the run up most people use on the east side of the field. Ground operations are pretty straight forward at john Wayne, and in my experience, its never taken me longer than 3 minutes to get from the end of runway 20L to my tiedown spot at the southwest side of the airfield on the opposite side of the main runway(20R). Taxiways are wide enought for 2 way traffic, except when you have an airbus or boeing taxiing from the end of the runway to the gates. controllers deal with a lot of students at that airport so be straight forward, and they'll help without an issue.

Thanks Niko182.   I landed 20R and was held up between the two runways at H for a few mintes,  then I was cleared to cross the 20L and hold at the midfield runup for taxiway A traffic, then was cleared to the southeast runup to let a few jets pass, and finally was cleared to go to Atlantic.  On departure, it was almost the same.  I landed around 4 pm on Friday and departed around 3:30 pm on Sunday.  Is it my bad luck or just timing when most jets take off and land?

[Niko182]

10 minutes ago, M20S Driver said:

Thanks Niko182.   I landed 20R and was held up between the two runways at H for a few mintes,  then I was cleared to cross the 20L and hold at the midfield runup for taxiway A traffic, then was cleared to the southeast runup to let a few jets pass, and finally was cleared to go to Atlantic.  On departure, it was almost the same.  I landed around 4 pm on Friday and departed around 3:30 pm on Sunday.  Is it my bad luck or just timing when most jets take off and land?

Next time you land 20R just land long. Do not exit at hotel. Atlantic is way down there and its easier to go all the way down to echo.

[M20S Driver]

2 hours ago, Niko182 said:

Next time you land 20R just land long. Do not exit at hotel. Atlantic is way down there and its easier to go all the way down to echo.

That will surely solve half of the problem. 

Does KSNA clearance delivery coordinate transitions thru LAX for VFR traffic using the published VFR routes?  

[Niko182]

10 minutes ago, M20S Driver said:

That will surely solve half of the problem. 

Does KSNA clearance delivery coordinate transitions thru LAX for VFR traffic using the published VFR routes?  

Yes. With climb rate i get i can make it to 6500 ft for the coastal route which is the way i would recommend. I would avoid the special flight rules area. Once flying a cessna a couple years back a baron was flying at the wrong altitude and missed me by 2 or 300 ft. He wasnt on frequency either. Just tell clearance dilerevery you would like to fly across lax via the coastal route.

[Bolter]

If you are willing to trade airplane time and convenience for longer drive times, my home drome FUL is a viable option.  Quickly park when you arrive, often for free, with affordable local FBO's.  Quick clearances when you leave, without waiting for anyone before release.  Similarly fast setups with ATC if you are gong VFR. 

Drive time is about 30 minutes to UCI.  Probably close to equal in actual door to door times because of the all the overhead of flying into the big airport.

-dan

[M20S Driver]

53 minutes ago, Dan at FUL said:

If you are willing to trade airplane time and convenience for longer drive times, my home drome FUL is a viable option.  Quickly park when you arrive, often for free, with affordable local FBO's.  Quick clearances when you leave, without waiting for anyone before release.  Similarly fast setups with ATC if you are gong VFR. 

Drive time is about 30 minutes to UCI.  Probably close to equal in actual door to door times because of the all the overhead of flying into the big airport.

-dan

This is very interesting.  I will give it try to see how it works out.  It is 23   miles to UC Irvine versus 9 miles from KSNA. 

Rental car may be an issue since none of the FBOs list them on the Foreflight.

[Bolter]

55 minutes ago, M20S Driver said:

This is very interesting.  I will give it try to see how it works out.  It is 23   miles to UC Irvine versus 9 miles from KSNA. 

Rental car may be an issue since none of the FBOs list them on the Foreflight.

As a local, I have not thought the rental cars.  Airnav shows that General Aviation (FBO on the South East of airport) has rental cars with the majors.  None listed for the other FBO, AFI.

[Niko182]

I'd still pick john wayne over Fullerton. you pay a ramp fee and a tad bit more in gas but you get a full service FBO, plus quite a few rental options,
SID's, an ILS and an RNAV approach going to 200 FT minimums in the morning and at night when the marine layer gets around 1000Ft ish overcast.
Fullerton does have a VOR A approach, but it is to 700ft or something. And if you land any where in between 6am and 10am and 3pm to 7pm, enjoy the at least
1 hour drive from fullerton to UCI. right after flying for 2 to 3 hours. Traffic here is a nightmare, and the 3 highways you'll be taking, (405, 55, and 5) will make
it seem like forever.
BTW whenever I get back from a flight around 5pm, I drive to UCI's chickfila and wait out the rush hour. its a 7 minute drive to UCI, vs an hour of driving.
IMO john wayne has never been a hassle to taxi around. you're on the east side. ask for 20L and I doubt the wait will be any long.
Just my 2 cents.

[Jerry 5TJ]

I flew from the Bay Area into John Wayne to visit my parents.  Between 1996 and 2010 I made about 120 round trips in my plane.  

In all those trips I never flew VFR, not even once.   IFR vía Central Valley, direct Lake Hughes VOR.  Invariably I’d get LHS V459 SLI.  Then vectors to the ILS 19 (now 20).  Easy & predictable.  

Departing I could file anything I wanted but I’d get the Anaheim departure.  That procedure was a handful in IMC with only VOR radios & no autopilot with high workload early in the flight.   Now it’s a couple of button pushes & situational awareness is improved with moving maps: You don’t want to miss that left turn after vectors towards Pomona.  

Taxi time was a few minutes. I don’t recall any issues.   The airport is too small for lengthy taxi.  

And yes, at times I felt I was running “Mooney Air Freight” as frequently someone in my extended family would ask “can you take a small box...” 

[M20S Driver]

Thanks for all your inputs.  Landing long is a good solution for avoiding delays in taxing to Atlantic.   For departures, I was wondering if tower would be receptive to an intersection take-off from H or G taxiways on 20R?  

Driver

[Jerry 5TJ]

I have never seen a mid-field intersection departure at KSNA.  (Light aircraft usually taxi for the intersection departure at Kilo). 

My guess is the noise reduction agreement forbids it.  

 

 

[Niko182]

42 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I have never seen a mid-field intersection departure at KSNA.  (Light aircraft usually taxi for the intersection departure at Kilo). 

My guess is the noise reduction agreement forbids it.  

 

 

Ive personally done one on hotel. Which is where the tower runup is. You may be able to request it. If you takeoff before 7 you can depart 2L on the otherside

[LANCECASPER]

7 hours ago, M20S Driver said:

Thanks for all your inputs.  Landing long is a good solution for avoiding delays in taxing to Atlantic.   For departures, I was wondering if tower would be receptive to an intersection take-off from H or G taxiways on 20R?  

Driver

I used to ask for intersection departures a lot when I first started flying at big airports with long runways. But I had an engine stumble one time in Peachtree DeKalb Atlanta just after rotating and was really glad i could set it back down on the remaining runway. This was after a run-up and turned out to be a bad mag that seemed fine on run-up.

If you fly long enough there's that one time where you'll need every bit of runway - maybe to set it back down. After that happened, even when offered an intersection departure, I decline.  https://generalaviationnews.com/2015/05/03/picture-of-the-day-the-runway-behind-you/

[Jerry 5TJ]

55 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

I've used to ask for intersection departures a lot when I first started flying at big airports with long runways. But I had an engine stumble one time in Peachtree DeKalb Atlanta just after rotating and was really glad i could set it back down on the remaining runway.....

Something like that happened to me ... at John Wayne.   Offered the shorter 20L I accepted and at about rotation speed the turbocharger blew a hose (T210), tho at the moment I only knew the engine was sick.  Power dropped from 300 to maybe 100 hp.  I considered veering to land on the remaining 3000’ of 20R but there was a 737 just touching down.  

The tower declared an emergency for me.  I flew a left hand pattern at about 400’ & landed.  

Like you, since then I’ve generally declined to take less than the full length of the longest runway.  

[Joe Zuffoletto]

I used to fly into KSNA about 4-6 times a year and found Signature to be more GA friendly than Atlantic. Closer to the midfield runup area and runways, too.

[M20S Driver]

3 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I used to ask for intersection departures a lot when I first started flying at big airports with long runways. But I had an engine stumble one time in Peachtree DeKalb Atlanta just after rotating and was really glad i could set it back down on the remaining runway. This was after a run-up and turned out to be a bad mag that seemed fine on run-up.

If you fly long enough there's that one time where you'll need every bit of runway - maybe to set it back down. After that happened, even when offered an intersection departure, I decline.  https://generalaviationnews.com/2015/05/03/picture-of-the-day-the-runway-behind-you/

Agreed 100%.  I have only done intersection takeoffs at KMCC with 10,000 feet runway.  I don't completely close the door on intersection take offs once in a while since sitting in the hot sun with no AC is not fun and the intersection take off at KSNA in longer than my home airport which is less than 2500'.

[Niko182]

1 hour ago, Joe Zuffoletto said:

I used to fly into KSNA about 4-6 times a year and found Signature to be more GA friendly than Atlantic. Closer to the midfield runup area and runways, too.

Signature got replaced by ACI jet, and ACI jet is the nicest BO i have been to so far. bunch of snacks. fuel price is okayish, and it is at the midfield runup, which would
shorter your taxi, but not by anything more than 50 seconds to a minute and 30 seconds.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

22 hours ago, Niko182 said:

Signature got replaced by ACI jet, and ACI jet is the nicest BO i have been to so far. bunch of snacks. fuel price is okayish, and it is at the midfield runup, which would
shorter your taxi, but not by anything more than 50 seconds to a minute and 30 seconds.

Yes, I forgot about that. But it is a fine FBO. One time I left my iPad there and they mailed it back to me long after I went home.

[AeroSax]

ACI Jet has been great, glad someone finally mentioned them.  I was a customer for six years of ACI at San Luis Obisbo, doing the same thing M20S driver is doing in reverse:  KSNA to KSBP about two to three times each quarter to visit our son at Cal Poly.  Like Niko182 I'm usually parking on the west side, but I'd hazard a guess that if you're landing on 20R the taxi times to ACI Jet will be quite a bit shorter than for Atlantic.  If you're here at UCI let us know and we'll meet up at Eureka by campus for a bite and/or drink.  We live very close to the campus...

[kmyfm20s]

I will be flying to KSNA the evening of 11/6 for a dinner in Newport. I might be there for 4 hours at the longest. Which is the least expensive of the FBO’s or are there any other alternatives for transient parking? 

@Niko182 you can take a look at the prop while I’m there if your around. I’ll be landing around 5pm.

Karson

 

[M20S Driver]

On 9/27/2018 at 10:26 AM, Niko182 said:

Signature got replaced by ACI jet, and ACI jet is the nicest BO i have been to so far. bunch of snacks. fuel price is okayish, and it is at the midfield runup, which would
shorter your taxi, but not by anything more than 50 seconds to a minute and 30 seconds.

Heading to KSNA this Friday for my annual cargo operation to move my son into his apartment at UCI.  I will surely combine it with a Buffalo Burger at KAVX on the was back on Sunday ....  Is there any new KSNA operational changes with ATC/Tower that not mentioned or indicated on the charts?  

I flew to KCRQ a month ago since the plane was loaded completely in smaller pieces and KSNA asked for $250 to allow my rental car on the ramp!  It worked at nicely at Western Flight but the drive was a pain.

[TGreen]

Nothing new. With the parallel runways, just be vigilant about wake turbulence. And, if landing 20L with a jet holding between the runways, be careful about jet blast. If you stay high to avoid the jet blast, be sure you've got the speed nailed because you will be giving up some runway. 20L is long enough,  but not if you are high and fast.

[M20S Driver]

2 minutes ago, TGreen said:

Nothing new. With the parallel runways, just be vigilant about wake turbulence. And, if landing 20L with a jet holding between the runways, be careful about jet blast. If you stay high to avoid the jet blast, be sure you've got the speed nailed because you will be giving up some runway. 20L is long enough,  but not if you are high and fast.

Thanks for the info.   I can not believe that the controllers have a jet hold between the runways.  In my case, I am too chicken to land and will enjoy the flight for a few more minutes and go around.  Thanks again and I keep it in mind.