Niko182 Posted September 23, 2018 Report Share Posted September 23, 2018 Today, I had a pretty simple flight planned to big bear. OAT was around 25 to 30C, clear day, no clouds, and very little wind. Baro Pressure was 2995. once cleared for takeoff, I noticed the acceleration was a tad bit sluggish, but just went with it, as I was 100lbs under gross or a couple 100 pounds more than I usually fly with. right after getting off the ground I noticed I was struggling to gain altitude. I was getting 500fpm climb at 100 knots. stupidly I decided to push further and see if it was just me, and got up to 5000 ft and leveled off quickly. airspeed didn't really get anything past 130 knots. I'm trying to figure out what the problem is. according to the engine all was good. FF was 23. MP was 29.00. RPM was 2375. CHTs were hotter than usual hitting 390 on climb out which is way hotter than usual. oil temp was 215 which is hotter than usual, and oil pressure was 62. when I leveled out at 5000ft, my number 2 CHT was way hotter than usual at 346. I'm trying to figure out the problem, everything was well within limits, but nothing felt right. on climb out 370 is usually what I see and in cruise below 8000 ill see about 320 to 335 CHT's, and above 8000ish I see 285 to 320. I did an oil change yesterday, and I doubt I messed anything up, but before that oil change the plane flew perfectly. also changed the cable cover on the moritz gauge rpm cable because it was grounding on the Engine block causing the tach to report like 5600 rpm and the hobbs to run at 2.5 times the actual time. all the engine numbers were in the green and well, but the airspeed indicated and VSI didn't correspond with the engine numbers. 500 ft per min at 100knots is garbage for an ovation, let a lone 130 knots cruise speed at 5000ft. once I got to 5000ft, I called it and turned back. I feel like an idiot pushing myself to make it all the way to 5000ft, but I'm really happy I didn't land at big bear. I doubt i would have been able to climb out of there. you live you learn I guess. Any ideas to what It could be. I'm completely lost on Ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 23, 2018 Report Share Posted September 23, 2018 Sounds like your power settings may not be matching the numbers you are reading... unfortunately, I don’t have numbers for an Eagle... I do have numbers for a Screamin’ Eagle, different, but the logic is still the same.... MP and rpm should define the power... The FF should back up what you are seeing with the power settings.... Beyond that... I use CloudAhoy with a WAAS source to measure T/O distance... which is a measure of real HP delivered over time... a newer iPad may have enough accuracy where adding a WAAS source may not be needed... I collect this data, mostly to review it if needed. Like you have today.... Follow that up with climb rate, another direct reading of excess HP.... A lightly loaded Screamin’ Eagle should be off the ground in about 800’ and be able to climb out near 2kfpm... Are you setting MP with throttle full in? 29 or so inches? Is your prop all the way in? 2700rpm? Are you getting FF above 27gph? Is your VSI near the top of the scale? If the power is being fully developed and the performance is still off... Look for draggy things still hanging out in the breeze... did the wheels come up? Did the flaps get stored? It is hard to get a back-up MP gauge, but full in is max MP... any smart phone can give a back-up reading of rpm... Getting a back-up reading of FF is possible with really good fuel gauges, but the results would still take some time to gather.... On the other hand... Are you seeing the limits of available hp that you have on a pretty warm day? What is you MGTOW for your Eagle? What prop are you using? Two blade or three? Was that helpful at all? Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko182 Posted September 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2018 Sadly i run the regular eagle, which means 29.92 inch of pressure, 2400rpm, and 22 to 23 ff. All was in the green. 2375 and 29ish inches is what i usually get. Same with the 23 gph ff. Gear came up. So did flaps, and speedbrakes were in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 23, 2018 Report Share Posted September 23, 2018 @Niko182, I was still editing a few details... If you can... re-read my post real quick and see if there is anything else in there that stands out... Sorry for the mixing, I chose one clean post in place of two spread out over time.... my bad... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko182 Posted September 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2018 (edited) On 9/22/2018 at 11:17 PM, carusoam said: Follow that up with climb rate, another direct reading of excess HP.... A lightly loaded Screamin’ Eagle should be off the ground in about 800’ and be able to climb out near 2kfpm... Are you setting MP with throttle full in? 29 or so inches?Yes Is your prop all the way in? 2700rpm?Yes and 2400rpm Are you getting FF above 27gph?Yes and 23GPH Is your VSI near the top of the scale?No. the VSI was showing a shit climb If the power is being fully developed and the performance is still off... Look for draggy things still hanging out in the breeze... did the wheels come up?Yes Did the flaps get stored?Yes It is hard to get a back-up MP gauge, but full in is max MP...I doubt its that. that gauge has never given me problems and other gauges back up the manifold pressure. it was right were it should be for run up too. any smart phone can give a back-up reading of rpm...I had issues with the original RPM gauge so I bought a portable light operated one. that one backed up the moritz gauges just perfectly. identicle RPM. Getting a back-up reading of FF is possible with really good fuel gauges, but the results would still take some time to gather....Doubt FF was wrong either because FF corresponded perfectly with RPM and Manifold pressure where they should be at run up and during flight On the other hand... Are you seeing the limits of available hp that you have on a pretty warm day?I'm pretty sure heat wasnt a problem today. i've taken of in socal were the temps were well north of 40C and still see climbs over 1000FPM. when I took off on my cross country trip to washington. I was at gross, and I still got a climb of 1000ft. What is you MGTOW for your Eagle?3200LBS What prop are you using? Two blade or three? sadly the 2 blade Was that helpful at all?As of right now no, but I'm sure this will give more detail to other people reading this, so in the future, yes. Best regards, -a- Filled everything out. Hope to get an answer pretty soon. this website never seems to disappoint. EVER Edited September 24, 2018 by Niko182 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 23, 2018 Report Share Posted September 23, 2018 Any chance the timing was set on your magnetos recently? Did you have the plane annualed recently? Timing gets checked and possibly set at this time... If the timing was changed it will give a lot of signs that everything hasn’t been changed... mp, rpm, FF stay the same, but efficiency falls off and the fuel isn’t completely converted to power... are you close to TBO on your engine? one part looking for signs of extreme engine wear.... really black oil, exhaust aroma in the oil...oil burned on the plugs.... another part looking forward to the 310hp upgrade.... could solve a bunch of issues... PP thoughts only, not a mechanic... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted September 23, 2018 Report Share Posted September 23, 2018 The Mortiz tach should be just a hobbs meter triggered by the oil pressure. Not sure why it was running fast. Was this your first oil change on the eagle? The higher temps are a result of the slow IAS climb out. I think you might be a little optimistic on performance. On a warm day closing in on 3200 lbs with less than 240 hp (you mentioned 2375) is going to be slow. Push the nose down and gain some speed. Did you cut the filter apart? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlunseth Posted September 23, 2018 Report Share Posted September 23, 2018 My first hunch was airflow. Is it possible that when you recowled the aircraft, the air intake was partially obstructed, or a hose or tube became partially disconnected, or baffling got folded into an incorrect position? Also, do you have an induction air door on the Eagle that switches the intake from raw air to air from inside the engine compartment? My type aircraft, the 231, has that, and it is on my checklist to always insure the door is “open,” meaning the engine is getting raw intake air. The purpose of the door is to overcome induction icing when, say, you fly through snow or an ice cloud and the air filter becomes blocked. The door automatically opens, or you can open it manually, and the intake air comes from inside the heated engine compartment. Power output will go down some because the intake air is hotter, but it is better than having it fall to zero, which is what would happen if the air intake becomes completely plugged. I don’t know the Eagle, and a 130 kt. cruise seems very unusual to me, but it is possible. And along the same vein, is it possible the Alternate Static was switched On and not caught with the checklist, or that the pitot was plugged or partially plugged? Which would give you erroneous readings. Most of all though, I would check the cylinders very carefully to make sure one is not cracked, especially down around the base where it is hard to see. There have been lots of reports of engines seeming to run normally (not rough) with partially cracked cylinder head, until it let’s go completely. PS also press the pitot and static drain buttons and see if that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko182 Posted September 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2018 5 hours ago, MIm20c said: The Mortiz tach should be just a hobbs meter triggered by the oil pressure. Not sure why it was running fast. by tach, I mean the RPM gauge. it used to read somewhere around 5600RPM on takeoff, but I installed a portable tach since it wasn't working and since the hobbs time was connected directly to the RPM gauge, it would mark approx 2.3 hours flown for every hour I flew. I covered the RPM probe with a new plastic cover and that solved the issue. Was this your first oil change on the eagle?4th oil change so far The higher temps are a result of the slow IAS climb out. I think you might be a little optimistic on performance. On a warm day closing in on 3200 lbs with less than 240 hp (you mentioned 2375) is going to be slow. Push the nose down and gain some speed. As I keep thinking about this, My guess is that it was probably just me, and not the airplane. I'll check the airplane out today again and figure out everything. Did you cut the filter apart?Filter stayed on. lower cowling didn't come off for the oil change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpcc Posted September 23, 2018 Report Share Posted September 23, 2018 Hey Nick - just wondering why you are not cutting the filter? You are flying the snot out of this now and is sat for a number of years right? Glad nothing happened though - looking forward to hearing what the reason was if you ever find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted September 23, 2018 Report Share Posted September 23, 2018 I would rethink keeping the filter on. 4 changes without taking it off? I know it makes a mess but every 35 hrs the filter comes off the planes that I do. Also helps me to take the cowling completely off to make sure everything is still tight and looks good. Also to mop up all the damn oil from changing the filter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yvesg Posted September 23, 2018 Report Share Posted September 23, 2018 Could this be partial blockage of the pitot tube? Bugs got in there? Yves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko182 Posted September 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 Well update for now. its not the engine. the engine is performing perfectly. I did another flight today alone and with 60 gals to make sure I was well under the gross weight. did run up and everything looked good. takeoff was great and so on. once off the ground, the Aircraft yawed pretty strongly to the left. it was doing that during the entire flight. during climb pretty dramatically. during cruise the ball was still completely outside the 2 lines and the plane wouldn't cruise faster than 120 KIAS at 3500ft full power burning 19.5 GPH. The GPS backed up the airspeed indicator by giving me a GS of 125 knots. something on the left side of the aircraft is causing significant amount of drag and I can't figure it out. i'll probs strap a gopro to the other wing and try to figure out what it was. BTW gear was up, according the gear safe light on the Annunciation, and the marker behind the fuel selector was also green. flaps were up and speed brakes were in. please help. I am completely lost on what this is. only thing i touched was the cowling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 24, 2018 Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 All gear doors are connected, nothing loose... Do you have electric rudder trim? If yes, read up on the latest rudder trim issue... if you need help finding the doc, it’s around here somewhere... It can slip and get out of synch... I believe a clutch can get overpowered to cause this slippage... This would explain you set the rudder to center, but now need a whole bunch of added trim to fly straight... and possibly run out of trim... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko182 Posted September 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 no rudder trim, and no clue if the gear came up completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 24, 2018 Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 Me thinks... Best to be experimenting on jacks while on the ground... Chances of finding it in flight are slim based on the instrumentation we have... Risk of something getting bent or broken is increasing... Me is only a PP, not a mechanic... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted September 24, 2018 Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 How did it fly with the gear down? How did the controls feel, especially ailerons and rudder? There are interconnect springs between the ailerons and rudder in the belly. It is possible (though unlikely) that something got jammed in there or for a spring to get katty-wumpus in there. It would be noticeable when moving the rudder. My suggestion, like Anthony said, is to get it up on jacks. Remove the belly panel (not much work). Retract the gear and while someone is outside the airplane looking at the gear, move all the controls through full deflection and have them check that, too. It is good to check the rudder movement on jacks with the gear up to remove the drag from the nosegear from the equation. The good news is that something as significant as you're describing will be obvious. Since your problem concerns the flight controls, I would definitely suggest not flying it until you identify it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted September 24, 2018 Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 1 hour ago, Niko182 said: Well update for now. its not the engine. the engine is performing perfectly. I did another flight today alone and with 60 gals to make sure I was well under the gross weight. did run up and everything looked good. takeoff was great and so on. once off the ground, the Aircraft yawed pretty strongly to the left. it was doing that during the entire flight. during climb pretty dramatically. during cruise the ball was still completely outside the 2 lines and the plane wouldn't cruise faster than 120 KIAS at 3500ft full power burning 19.5 GPH. The GPS backed up the airspeed indicator by giving me a GS of 125 knots. something on the left side of the aircraft is causing significant amount of drag and I can't figure it out. i'll probs strap a gopro to the other wing and try to figure out what it was. BTW gear was up, according the gear safe light on the Annunciation, and the marker behind the fuel selector was also green. flaps were up and speed brakes were in. please help. I am completely lost on what this is. only thing i touched was the cowling. Sounds like your landing gear is not retracting. On my Mooney, green means that the gear is down. I would taxi it to a maintenance facility and get it up on jacks and swing the gear to see what's going on. (You might first check that the latch covering the emergency gear extension is not popped up - that will keep the gear from retracting. If you've had rear seats passengers that's a definite possibility.) The rest is intended just for your safety, not to preach. Feel free to read on if you like, if not, no problem . . . . On another note if it is yawing to the left, don't strap a go pro on it and go fly it. What if the one of the control surfaces is binding? I wouldn't fly it at all that way. I wouldn't want to try to sort that out in the air, especially in SoCal. On yet another note, the Maintenance Manual on the M20R, same engine as the M20S, says in section 79-00-01 that the oil filter should be replaced at every oil change. Elsewhere in the manual they also recommend cutting the filter open at every oil change. Your life and the lives of your passengers is worth following the Maintenance Manual to a tee. There are pictures of what people have found in their filters. The bad news was they weren't going flying today. The good news was they didn't go flying that day. Although some owner maintenance is allowed under the FARS, most owners don't necessarily do it to save money, they do it to get to know their airplanes better. If you haven't learned how to safety wire an oil filter yet, and that's the trickiest part of the oil change, that's ok. Get someone to help you with that part of it. That goes with removing and re-installing the lower cowl also. But don't leave steps out. You might look at each oil change as a "quarterly inspection". If you have an exhaust crack develop three months after annual, you don't wanna fly around nine months with it that way. It will destroy your cowl, but could cause an engine fire or much worse a cabin fire. Hitting the exhaust slip joints with mouse milk at every oil change gives you a chance to put some eyes on those areas. Shortcuts on automotive maintenance might mean you are stranded by the side of the road someplace. Shortcuts on aircraft maintenance has many times led to engine failure on take-off and resulted in stall/spin fatalities where the pilot tries to get it back to the airport. Follow up: Just remembered - one more reason to cut your filter open on the IO-550 engine . . if you find tiny orange rubber slivers in your filter it means that the alternator drive clutch is going bad on you. The rubber slivers probably aren't gonna hurt too much, but not having an alternator soon would be nice to know, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko182 Posted September 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 (edited) I think i got my answer now. Green is down. and I kept on looking at the Annunciator panel saying gear safe. not gear down. This makes a lot of sense. its somewhat funny as I do a gumps check 3 times before landing, but during that flight I was so preoccupied with the anxiety of having engine troubles, I never checked if the gear was up. Oil filter was replaced by the way. for some reason, i was thinking air filter. Edited September 24, 2018 by Niko182 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 24, 2018 Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 Isn’t it fun being human? Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko182 Posted September 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 well I'll throw it on some jacks tomorrow and we should have our answer. everything makes sense with this including the fact that it would climb at a faster speed than 100 knots, or cruise faster than 120, and a climb of 700ft per minute, alone with 60 gallons. I see at least 12 to 1300ft per minute climb solo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlunseth Posted September 24, 2018 Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 Someone already said it, but I will say it again. Did you check the emergency gear latch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko182 Posted September 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 6 hours ago, LANCECASPER said: (You might first check that the latch covering the emergency gear extension is not popped up - that will keep the gear from retracting. If you've had rear seats passengers that's a definite possibility.) 5 hours ago, jlunseth said: Someone already said it, but I will say it again. Did you check the emergency gear latch? Well it was this. During the flight I kept on thinking it was the engine because I had done the oil change about an hour of flying before my flight to big bear. on the flight to bear, I did indeed have a back seat passenger and he must of hit the emergency gear latch. I couldn't sleep tonight, so about 30 minutes ago I decided to go check if it was the latch, and to my surprise when I got to the plane, the latch is unlocked and the CB for the gear actuator is out. Somewhat irritated and disappointed that I missed that because I kept on looking at the engine gauges instead of the whole picture. very happy though that the gear got stuck down and not up. Also happy that I went and checked it at 3am because If I wouldn't have, the plane was jumping on jacks tomorrow morning, and that would have been a wonderful couple hundred dollar bill from my mechanic, for something as little as an emergency latch. And as usual, this forum never disappoints. sorry for wasting your guys' time for something so minor. Nik 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted September 24, 2018 Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 2 minutes ago, Niko182 said: Well it was this. During the flight I kept on thinking it was the engine because I had done the oil change about an hour of flying before my flight to big bear. on the flight to bear, I did indeed have a back seat passenger and he must of hit the emergency gear latch. I couldn't sleep tonight, so about 30 minutes ago I decided to go check if it was the latch, and to my surprise when I got to the plane, the latch is unlocked and the CB for the gear actuator is out. Somewhat irritated and disappointed that I missed that because I kept on looking at the engine gauges instead of the whole picture. very happy though that the gear got stuck down and not up. Also happy that I went and checked it at 3am because If I wouldn't have, the plane was jumping on jacks tomorrow morning, and that would have been a wonderful couple hundred dollar bill from my mechanic, for something as little as an emergency latch. And as usual, this forum never disappoints. sorry for wasting your guys' time for something so minor. Nik Twenty plus years ago I had to fly a Mooney M20M that I owned back from Ft. Worth to San Antonio with the gear down because of this very thing. The next day when I called Lone Star Aero to get it in to have it looked at Dennis Bernhard the owner of the shop asked about the latch. I drove out to the airport and sure enough , , , 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiny moose Posted September 24, 2018 Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 I have been lurking, waiting to hear what you found as the root cause. It amazes me of the giving of free knowledge from mooneyspace folks. I am impressed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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