Min runway for a 201

[manac]

Wife and I looked at a 1990 M20J, she loved it.

We live on a grass strip 9B8 CT. Published 2000’ more like 2500. Can a 201 do that hen it’s not mud and not 90?

Thanks

Matt 

[Yetti]

The plane performance can be found in the POH.   As we say in shooting, the gun is more accurate that the shooter will ever be.   Can you do it is the question.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Matt.

 

Yes you can, but do you want to, every time...

The significant risk comes with engine out scenarios... what is at both ends of the runway?

There is a bit of unease that can accompany rushing at trees, at 65mph, on the ground...

Wondering, if the grass has been mowed recently, or if the rain has had enough time to dry, or if your WnB calculations include the latest fuel level....

Include your right seater in the conversation... you might be ready for this every time, are they?

Expect that 2,000’ is enough for most operations...

but for comfort, how do you feel about the usual type on the fly, go nogo....  being off the ground at the halfway point or abort?

Being heavy, or high temp, or soft conditions is going to leave you with the decision making requirements that are more unique to you than to the whole community...

If you haven’t been familiar with DA calculations since you learned how to fly... now would be the time to decide...

 

Take this as a pro (not anti) thought.  Keep in mind you are going to want another airport nearby that your friends can drive to so you can load all four people in the plane and comfortably fly off...

Your question is three part...

1) technical... yes, with limitations...

2) how does your crew feel about this...?

3) Safety... engine stumbles and shakes, at 50mph... how is your stopping distance compared to runway left?

4) got room for two planes? What plane do you have already?

 

you left out your experience...

It would help to know what type of flying experience you have and the decision processes you use at your home field...

Best regards,

-a-

[manac]

Sorry, I’ve been flying out of 9B8 for 6 years.  Looked at the performance data for the M20J and it looks doable.  The M20K  does not look comfortable.

If I loose an engine I’m in the trees.  My plane is in as good a shape as I can maintain it.

My montra is “flying should be fun, NOT exciting”.

Matt

Edited September 22, 2018 by manac

[carusoam]

What have you been flying for six years?

Is it off the ground at the halfway point?

Or is it off the ground in 300’, landed, and back off the ground with another 1000’ to spare?

 

2000’ is typically the edge of the performance range of operations...  adding grass to the equation adds to the challenge.

We have MSers that fly out of grass short fields at their Homes as well.

 

having a runway in their backyard, on a Saturday... they might not be back for a while....  

Best regards,

-a-

[Tommy]

Can be done but probably not a good idea until you are truly comfortable with your plane. Then do it when the wind is calm with light load. 

Basically, ease into it and do performance calculations every time you take off / land at your strip. 

[Hank]

I used to take my C into a 2000' grass strip before I relocated. My personal limit was 2 people and half tanks. No trouble taking a 172 there, nor any of the taildraggers based there. Then skydivers moved in, pranged their 182 after running out of gas and bought a C206. So 2000' can be done, and can be done in a Mooney. But can it be done regularly, often, in a J, with a load? I'm not sure, and that's as far as I'll go (because I don't fly a J).

[Mooneymite]

Saying "grass" is not very definitive.  Short, dry turf on a firm, smooth surface and long, wet weeds on a mushy, uneven surface might both be described as "grass", but will not produce the same performance numbers for takeoff... or landing.

Evaluating "grass" performance numbers is an inexact science.

Most people seem to worry about takeoff on grass, but in my limited experience wet grass landings provide the most excitement.  

[Niko182]

It's possible, but every time you plan to travel, you will be limited by 2 people and half fuel ish.
as of now I've flown into a short strip 2 times so far. its really cool and fun, but would I want to
do it every time I fly. No

Grass strip like this somewhat limits the aircraft, as you can never really pack up if you plan to go somewhere within a 3 to 4 hour
flight.
 

[Spurious Moppet]

Well I fly an E off a 1700’ hard grass runway at my house. In the summer, limited to two adults and some baggage. In winter, T/O at gross is not a problem. My go/no go point is rotation by halfway or else abort. It isn’t optimal, but I’m comfortable with it.

[manac]

Thanks everyone.  A lot of good advise.  The best was a M20J flew in today and was off in about 800’.  Dry hard short grass, 65 deg, DA ~300’. From the poh @1740 it should take ~1,100.  No matter what I get there will be days I have to go light or even not at all.

[INA201]

I personally would not consider grass under 3500.  This is just my opinion.  I have flown in and out of BQ1 which is a hard surface 2500 ft runway without any issues.  I make sure I am on my short game prior to going for the good BBQ(pirep).

https://www.airnav.com/airport/BQ1

 

[Hank]

I took my C to a good grass field this summer; it had been raining for almost a week, and rained all four days that I was there. When we landed and rolled out, turning around without stopping almost bogged down, but full power and relaxing the turn radius kept me (bafely) moving.

When it came time to leave on Monday, more rain was forecast for Sunday night. So I flew out Sunday evening to a nearby paved field and had my wife drive 30 minutes to get me. We loaded up and left from there Monday morning between rain showers with no problem. My wet grass, soft field takeoff (solo, less than half tanks, no baggage) was a little longer than normal with Takeoff flaps, while my normal takeoff is No Flaps.

After the squishy landing and almost bogging down, I was cautious. I also walked the runway before takeoff, checking water levels and soft spots. It's not something I'd want to do regularly.

Just one more thing to consider . . .

[Vno]

Matt,

It is too bad that this post didn't come out earlier as I am at SNC and could have shown you real experience on how the J flies. That is my suggestion though, to find a J and actually see for yourself the real world performance. While it is new to me and I am still getting my feel for it, I would not be comfortable coming out of a 2000' strip consistently. Landings are not an issue for that length.  The departures feel somewhat anemic. Other airplanes I have flown will "pop" off the runway and climb out well at slow speeds. I have a 92 MSE and am normally depart just myself and around 30gal of fuel. I am probably around 24-2500 lbs. I calculated about 1800' over a 50' no wind and Sea Level. If you watch some of the videos of T/Os the plane levitates off the ground and stays in or close Ground effect to accelerate. When you do this it eats up a lot of runway. Though I am not trying to do a max performance technique the airplane will lift off at around 900' or so but I sit in ground effect until passing 75 kts and then it will climb out at 500-800' a minute. With this I get pretty close to the end of the runway (crossing the departure end at  most 150' agl) and it is 2700' long. Obviously you could do better but it just is not the most comfortable way to operate it consistently. When I have tried to pull the airplane off right at 63 knots I get the joy of the stall warning blaring and it just feels like it is sluggish and behind the power curve until it gets above 70 kts. And still eats up runway.

So again, I would find someone with a J and do 5-6 T/O minimum and see for yourself. The book performance is most likely correct but it doesn't feel like it. And as you said, it should be fun, not exciting.

Brian

[steingar]

It'll be great until a gopher moves in.  I'm surprised anyone would insure a Mooney to do this.  They're the ones footing the repair bills.

[jlunseth]

 I have landed my K on grass strips of 2600 and 2700 feet.  Its not that hard.  Many of the strips had what I will call a runout area.  To do a soft field, you hold the yoke back and lift the aircraft off as soon as possible into ground effect.  Then accelerate in ground effect.  You don’t need a runway for that, all you need is hard ground without bushes and tall grass. Many of the grass strips were designed that way, with a relatively short runway and a runout area beyond that.  That said, I would not do 2000 feet.  Can it be done?  If you are really on your game, probably yes in good conditions.  Can you do it every day, on your game or not, good or bad conditions?  That would be a problem.  I would want at least 2500.

[Bartman]

One of my favorites for practice is KGDY.  It's 2,250 ft long and sits on top of a mountain at 2,300 MSL.  With sheer cliffs on either end it's the closest thing I can imagine it would be like taking off or landing on a carrier simply regarding the sight picture and size.  It's also fun to take off and stay In ground effect then watch the Earth fall out from under you at the departure end.   When it's hot the density altitude easily exceeds 4,000 feet and makes for an interesting takeoff, but with not even a bush at the ends and a huge valley on either end you can just lower the nose and accelerate. Went there with another MS'er in August and landed 2nd attempt with plenty of runway to spare. Gotta be more like 60kts and aim for the cliff just under the end of the runway to make it stick to the runway.  Can't be 5kts too fast because you'll float 500ft or more.

Yeah it can be done, but I would not want to do max performance every takeoff and landing. 

[1964-M20E]

Looking at Google Maps taking off to the NW you will have about 2900' from the fence to the trees and to the SE you will have 2500' to the fence / road.

What way do the winds blow most of the time?

I think it is doable but at times you may be pushing it and if you were to have a problem on take off (with any plane) you are in the trees.

 

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Salmon+River+Airfield/@41.5897292,-72.4432079,1094m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x89e6421cd4dc9509:0xafd80a6242e3c80d!2sColchester,+CT+06415!3b1!8m2!3d41.5756728!4d-72.3320051!3m4!1s0x89e6441a37571d3f:0x906a5c9e3ee60761!8m2!3d41.5895431!4d-72.4423081

 

[Hank]

7 hours ago, Bartman said:

One of my favorites for practice is KGDY.  It's 2,250 ft long and sits on top of a mountain at 2,300 MSL.  With sheer cliffs on either end it's the closest thing I can imagine it would be like taking off or landing on a carrier simply regarding the sight picture and size.  It's also fun to take off and stay In ground effect then watch the Earth fall out from under you at the departure end.   When it's hot the density altitude easily exceeds 4,000 feet and makes for an interesting takeoff, but with not even a bush at the ends and a huge valley on either end you can just lower the nose and accelerate. Went there with another MS'er in August and landed 2nd attempt with plenty of runway to spare. Gotta be more like 60kts and aim for the cliff just under the end of the runway to make it stick to the runway.  Can't be 5kts too fast because you'll float 500ft or more.

Yeah it can be done, but I would not want to do max performance every takeoff and landing. 

It's been a while since I was last at Pike County, but it also has a drop off like that at one end, doesn't it? Though it's plenty long. 

[Bartman]

58 minutes ago, Hank said:

It's been a while since I was last at Pike County, but it also has a drop off like that at one end, doesn't it? Though it's plenty long. 

PBX has a dropoff on the North end of 2-20 which is the old closed runway, and sorta has a dropoff on the West end of the current runway 9-27, but being 5,500 ft long it is never a factor.  You should stop by GDY on your way to Huntington sometime just for the experience.  Oh and 9KY9 is pretty fun too.

[laytonl]

We’ve discussed this scenario a lot in other threads.

 

I live on a 3,000’ grass strip.  It’s a one-way runway with 70’ trees on each end.  I developed a table of Winds, temp and weights that I use to make a go - no go decision.  Generally I don’t fly out of the strip at weights over 2,500 lbs, no more than 10 kts tailwind, and temp less than 90f.

 These conditions, along with heavy rains, are very limiting in Georgia during the summer heat, and due to tailwinds during the winter.  Because of the impact on trips  I’ve recently decided to move the airplane to the nearby municipal airport and use my Citabria to flyover there for Mooney trips.  My son has a hangar at the airport for the Mooney.

The Mooney will come home for maintenance, washing, etc., otherwise it’ll be on pavement. 

 

Lee

[Hank]

13 hours ago, Bartman said:

PBX has a dropoff on the North end of 2-20 which is the old closed runway, and sorta has a dropoff on the West end of the current runway 9-27, but being 5,500 ft long it is never a factor.  You should stop by GDY on your way to Huntington sometime just for the experience.  Oh and 9KY9 is pretty fun too.

Isn't 9KY9 the private paved strip over on US 23? Didn't think it was open to the public. Besides, Big Sandy has a restaurant and occasionally interesting traffic, just don't orbit the jail to the NW. And watch the turkey and elk if you taxi uphill for a down-slope departure!

Big Sandy changed IDs not long before we moved to Alabama, it's now KSJS. My first landing there was fun, downhill on the ski jump. Must have finally touched down around midfield. (I think the slope is about 3° downhill to the south.) The restaurant is pretty good, just don't go there for Saturday supper on prom night, the line is out the door. Landing uphill is unusual, too, with the ~500' flat then going uphill at the same 3°---better touch down on the flat and be ready!    Did I mention that the food is good?

[Jerry 5TJ]

A 2000’ grass runway seemed ok ‘under normal conditions’ in my C or E but not in the R.  

Extra weight, inner gear doors can make a short grass strip less fun.  

[MBDiagMan]

Although I never hanagered there, I often operated my slightly over engined Cessna 140 in and out of a 2,200’ grass strip quite a bit about five years ago.  There was brush and short fence on both ends and I never had an exciting issue with it.  I was comfortable with that little plane(still am.).  I was comfortable enough with my C that I probably could have done it, but I am not yet comfortable with my F that has all the J modifications.  Actually I could probably feel more comfortable getting it out than getting it in.  I only have about ten hours in it and I still have to come in and bleed off speed over the runway.  I almost always turn off at midfield(3,000’,) but I would have to have some more quality time before trying to put it into 2,300’ even though the grass would probably shorten the roll out.