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Stormscope


jazztheglass

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52 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

It’s not hard to deal with this radio spread phenomenon. Just turn 20° and then note tge strikes moving off to the right side of the screen and then you’re fine. Between that and XM or ADSB weather it’s not hard to determine where the bad weather is. 

You can drone along for hours and hours in and out of rain or whatever but when you punch the side of a level III thunderstorm all hell breaks loose you will very quickly understand the value of the stormscope. I’ve done this plenty of times in jets and it really depends on what you fly through. One time we hit some stuff in a 747 we went up 1000 feet in about eight seconds. 

 

52 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

It’s not hard to deal with this radio spread phenomenon. Just turn 20° and then note tge strikes moving off to the right side of the screen and then you’re fine. Between that and XM or ADSB weather it’s not hard to determine where the bad weather is. 

You can drone along for hours and hours in and out of rain or whatever but when you punch the side of a level III thunderstorm all hell breaks loose you will very quickly understand the value of the stormscope. I’ve done this plenty of times in jets and it really depends on what you fly through. One time we hit some stuff in a 747 we went up 1000 feet in about eight seconds. 

+1 for XM or ADSB AND stormscope.   Very comforting when droning along IMC.  For me the stormscope is just another tool with a very specific purpose.  Avoiding embedded TS. 

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4 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Cell reception in a small airplane is not very reliable. I try and try and try to get weather data on my phone and occasionally I can. But usually not. Plus  I question the value of 20 minute old cloud to ground only lightning. 

That is my experience.

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I've chased down the leads given on this and other pages. Thanks for the suggestions!  I appreciate the cell phone discussion but I'm flying at 18-22K typically and have never had a wisp of cell coverage there.  I have been impressed with the ads-b lightening strikes on foreflight via my garmin 345.  The price of the processor alone for a wx-500 is going to be north of $2,000 with shipping.  Probably north of $3,000 when installation is included (maybe less since the panel is apart right now).  I know there are many people who swear by them but at some point I don't have an endless supply of money for the planes! Currently in the 340 I have real time onboard radar, xm weather, and ads-b weather.  I think I will wait and see if the price comes down on the wx-500 or a used one comes on the market.  I susepct the price will come down with the strikes being shown on ads-b.  I guess one of the other reasons I wanted to get it working was that my MFD would always say sensor fail on that screen as I was shuffling through.  That just kind of aggravates me.  How much would the price of a processor come down before I would buy it.  I don't know  50%?  If I could get it installed for under $1500 I'd probably do it.  What do you guys think?  What is the value it adds, what price would you pay?

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1 hour ago, jazztheglass said:

I've chased down the leads given on this and other pages. Thanks for the suggestions!  I appreciate the cell phone discussion but I'm flying at 18-22K typically and have never had a wisp of cell coverage there.  I have been impressed with the ads-b lightening strikes on foreflight via my garmin 345.  The price of the processor alone for a wx-500 is going to be north of $2,000 with shipping.  Probably north of $3,000 when installation is included (maybe less since the panel is apart right now).  I know there are many people who swear by them but at some point I don't have an endless supply of money for the planes! Currently in the 340 I have real time onboard radar, xm weather, and ads-b weather.  I think I will wait and see if the price comes down on the wx-500 or a used one comes on the market.  I susepct the price will come down with the strikes being shown on ads-b.  I guess one of the other reasons I wanted to get it working was that my MFD would always say sensor fail on that screen as I was shuffling through.  That just kind of aggravates me.  How much would the price of a processor come down before I would buy it.  I don't know  50%?  If I could get it installed for under $1500 I'd probably do it.  What do you guys think?  What is the value it adds, what price would you pay?

The prices are not really coming down because people use them know the value of them and ADSB or XM do not replace that. I paid 1100 bucks for a WX1000 4 years ago, they are still selling for that. Waiting for the prices come down, well we tried that on stormscopes and GNS430W. They didn’t over 5 years.  

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2 hours ago, jazztheglass said:

  What do you guys think?  What is the value it adds, what price would you pay?

 

See if I have this right....  there is something not properly coming out in this conversation...

1) you fly IFR in IMC.... (if you don’t, you can avoid thunderstorms visually...)

2) there are two sources of weather info...

  • pretty color graphics, that can be 10 -20 minutes old from the time it is delivered to you plane. (ADSB, XM, cell phone maybe)
  • a sferics based device that can help you avoid thunderstorms in real time.

3) you have one device and the other one is broken.

4) Do you want to continue to fly IFR in IMC when thunderstorms may be present?  Or are you OK sitting on the ground waiting for large storm systems to pass? (This assumes you are not just rolling the dice)

5) you know lightning and rain doesn’t fold a plane’s wings in flight... 

6) you know wing folding forces are caused by the wind shear that accompanies thunderstorms...

7) A sferics based device is the piece of equipment to have to avoid the wind shear caused by thunderstorms. Sferics detects the static electricity that accompanies the thunderstorms. Detect the storm, avoid the shear...

8) tradition is to avoid thunderstorms by 20nm? (Check on this technical detail)

9) to avoid a thunderstorm by 20nm requires having a sferics device or an actual working radar on board.

10) lines of thunderstorms that cross multiple states are hard to avoid.  It can require finding a gap between cells.

 

If you have all that....

  • A good sferics based device is the best technology for avoiding plane bending storms.
  • it has to be in good working order.
  • The operation has to be understood by the pilot

The options a pilot has....

  • Avoid flying in IMC in springtime when there are a lot of storm cells imbedded in clouds.
  • Avoid flying in IMC unless you know what else is in there besides you.
  • Have all the tools on board to keep the wings from folding up.

 

New pilots need to avoid...

  • Flying VFR into IMC (deadly)
  • Running out of gas (possibly deadly, kind of a dice roll depending where you are when it happens)

IFR Pilots need to avoid...

  • flying into thunderstorms (where flying slower than maneuvering speed may not be enough to keep the wings on)
  • flying into icing conditions (some anti icing equipment is available for this to improve the odds)

 

Summary...

  • Get your sferics device fixed and train using it so you can safely avoid thunderstorms imbedded in imc.
  • It’s value is based on how you avoid folding up your plane’s wings...
  • Avoid the costs, by sitting on the ground when you can’t see the imbedded storms in real time.

 

Flying in IMC becomes serious business when other things can be in the clouds with you...

have the tools to avoid rocks, ice, thunderstorms, other planes, and running out of gas...

These are typically worth what your life is...

 

Not trying to be a fear monger.   Just trying to help a Mooney aviator understand the available tools used to avoid the risk types he may encounter.

Did we figure out what is missing from the conversation?

 

PP thoughts and logic only, Mooneys aren’t strong enough to fly in all conditions....

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

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When looking for a sferics device...

There are a few things that are good.  What display you are going to use.... and does the display handle changes in the plane’s direction.

Get one that displays on your color GPS screen layered with traffic... is pretty ideal....

More PP thoughts only,

-a-

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10 hours ago, carusoam said:

 

See if I have this right....  there is something not properly coming out in this conversation...

1) you fly IFR in IMC.... (if you don’t, you can avoid thunderstorms visually...)

2) there are two sources of weather info...

  • pretty color graphics, that can be 10 -20 minutes old from the time it is delivered to you plane. (ADSB, XM, cell phone maybe)
  • a sferics based device that can help you avoid thunderstorms in real time.

3) you have one device and the other one is broken.

4) Do you want to continue to fly IFR in IMC when thunderstorms may be present?  Or are you OK sitting on the ground waiting for large storm systems to pass? (This assumes you are not just rolling the dice)

5) you know lightning and rain doesn’t fold a plane’s wings in flight... 

6) you know wing folding forces are caused by the wind shear that accompanies thunderstorms...

7) A sferics based device is the piece of equipment to have to avoid the wind shear caused by thunderstorms. Sferics detects the static electricity that accompanies the thunderstorms. Detect the storm, avoid the shear...

8) tradition is to avoid thunderstorms by 20nm? (Check on this technical detail)

9) to avoid a thunderstorm by 20nm requires having a sferics device or an actual working radar on board.

10) lines of thunderstorms that cross multiple states are hard to avoid.  It can require finding a gap between cells.

 

If you have all that....

  • A good sferics based device is the best technology for avoiding plane bending storms.
  • it has to be in good working order.
  • The operation has to be understood by the pilot

The options a pilot has....

  • Avoid flying in IMC in springtime when there are a lot of storm cells imbedded in clouds.
  • Avoid flying in IMC unless you know what else is in there besides you.
  • Have all the tools on board to keep the wings from folding up.

 

New pilots need to avoid...

  • Flying VFR into IMC (deadly)
  • Running out of gas (possibly deadly, kind of a dice roll depending where you are when it happens)

IFR Pilots need to avoid...

  • flying into thunderstorms (where flying slower than maneuvering speed may not be enough to keep the wings on)
  • flying into icing conditions (some anti icing equipment is available for this to improve the odds)

 

Summary...

  • Get your sferics device fixed and train using it so you can safely avoid thunderstorms imbedded in imc.
  • It’s value is based on how you avoid folding up your plane’s wings...
  • Avoid the costs, by sitting on the ground when you can’t see the imbedded storms in real time.

 

Flying in IMC becomes serious business when other things can be in the clouds with you...

have the tools to avoid rocks, ice, thunderstorms, other planes, and running out of gas...

These are typically worth what your life is...

 

Not trying to be a fear monger.   Just trying to help a Mooney aviator understand the available tools used to avoid the risk types he may encounter.

Did we figure out what is missing from the conversation?

 

PP thoughts and logic only, Mooneys aren’t strong enough to fly in all conditions....

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

I appreciate your comments. My on board real time radar is good for about 50 miles before the resolution suffers. I think with that in real time and the ads-b ForeFlight and Xm 796 weather on minutes delay I can continue to fly conservatively and avoid any embedded storms.  The stormscope would offer a fourth source and it is in op at present. I guess it technically might identify areas of heavy or extreme radar echoes that don’t have convective activity but to be honest I generally steer clear of these.

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Jazz,

I don’t recall why the small Mooney radar went out of style...  but it did.

It May have just been expensive to fix on top of expensive to buy and install.

 

We have threads on just about every topic.  Including some details regarding the Mooney radar.

I know having one completely removed would include some wing sheet metal work.

 

the limitation to the radar’s distance is the size of the radar itself.

The sferics devices can see 100s of Miles out.

 

There are limitations to some sferics as well where multiple storms are hiding behind each other.  You want to know which one you have and what it’s limitations are...

 

Got any pics of your radar in action?

when it comes to real-time thunderstorm avoidance... you only need one that keeps you out of the storm cells.  Make it a good one.

Properly instrumented...  The worst that can happen, you have to stop short before flying into bad weather...

Improperly instrumented... you fly on Thinking you are avoiding the storms... 

 

PP thoughts only, not a weather radar guy at all...

 

Best regards,

-a-

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1 hour ago, teejayevans said:

I wonder how difficult it would be to develop a portable solution, probably lower cost significantly, like the portable ADSB boxes.

I've thought a bit about this, there's one chip that has a 40 km range but no bearing capabilities, but really, with modern tech we should be able to build something that fits into the size of a current antenna and provides all the same data. All it would take is money and probably lots of it.

Possibly another interesting idea might just be to get the latency reduced. If there were a way to get ground based data to aircraft with under a minute delay and handled both cloud to ground and intra-cloud this would probably cover 95% of the current in-cockpit users. Also, just needs money, and probably lots of it.

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@carusoam I think you're missing one option from your excellent as always, summary of the thread... and that's ATC. I fly plenty of IFR and find that the combination of ADSB weather and updates from ATC, have been more than sufficient to keep me 20 nm clear of the stuff that breaks the wings off Mooneys. I can remember back to a time when ATC didn't have that capability. But I've been all over the lower 48 in just the last two or three years and have only found a couple of places where ATC able or wasn't proactively happy to help me stay away from the heavy stuff.

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Great input Paul!

It has been more than half a decade since I crossed a long cold front in IMC...

swapping frequencies trying to get personalized weather info was a crowded near useless experience....

my StrikeFinder screen was full up.  Getting on the ground became the #1 priority...

I bought an ADSB in device the following week...

ATC modernization seems to have produced some great tools.

 

Lasting memory.  Flying Florida to NJ the week before, and in the area of, Tornado ‘n Fun....  :)

The frontal system was in place for a week and stretched from TX to Fl...

Thanks again,

-a-

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22 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I can remember back to a time when ATC didn't have that capability. But I've been all over the lower 48 in just the last two or three years and have only found a couple of places where ATC able or wasn't proactively happy to help me stay away from the heavy stuff.

ATC sent me right through an embedded cell at night over the KY mountains years ago. Quite a ride. But Paul is right, Center has better radar today than back in the '70s. It's my memory that I ordered a ($9000) Ryan Stormscope the next day. 

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I blundered into an embedded thunderstorm one morning in west Texas.  Shook us like rocks in a beer can.  Wife said we weren't going to do that again.  Next week ordered a $3400 3M WX8 Stormscope.  Put 5000+ hours on that sucker and never asked help around weather although I requested a lot of turns.  If the Stormscope did not show weather in front of me I continued straight ahead.  If weather did show ahead, I asked for a specific heading until clear.

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Yeah, like I said, I think this is relatively recent upgrades to ATC. Over the last two years, and a fair amount of IMC, ATC usually reaches out to me before I even ask, and will suggest a vector or two or three, to stay clear of a cell that's just popped up. 

They recently threaded me between three large cells on my way home to Austin. It was almost like progressive taxi instructions. They seemed to have up the minute data, and obviously could see us easily as well. They easily kept us clear of the ugly stuff and home safely.

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10 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Yeah, like I said, I think this is relatively recent upgrades to ATC. Over the last two years, and a fair amount of IMC, ATC usually reaches out to me before I even ask, and will suggest a vector or two or three, to stay clear of a cell that's just popped up. 

They recently threaded me between three large cells on my way home to Austin. It was almost like progressive taxi instructions. They seemed to have up the minute data, and obviously could see us easily as well. They easily kept us clear of the ugly stuff and home safely.

In general, I agree that ATC's weather avoidance assist has improved greatly.  But remember that they are working with radar and ride reports, but unless I'm mistaken they do not have lightening data.  I fly with XM and a stormscope.  While I welcome ATC input I find that the stormscope input gives me a supplement that sometimes trumps what ATC supplies.

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On 9/18/2018 at 3:21 PM, carusoam said:

Flying in IMC becomes serious business when other things can be in the clouds with you...

Very true statement.  Be very careful as you cannot see what a weather radar can see such as dangerous hooks and fingers. WX radar enables you to traverse around the cells at a good distance and don't forget to consider the possibility of an overhead anvil.

I have had a WX500 for many years and if I'm in IMC with a bunch of strikes ahead across the top of the screen, I'll turn away 90 degrees and fly until they are gone.  If they don't, I'll land at the nearest suitable airport.

For me, if it's forecast to be that bad then I will just not go and leave it for another day.

A stormscope is a great safety addition, but it does have it's limitations. 

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15 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

@carusoam I think you're missing one option from your excellent as always, summary of the thread... and that's ATC. I fly plenty of IFR and find that the combination of ADSB weather and updates from ATC, have been more than sufficient to keep me 20 nm clear of the stuff that breaks the wings off Mooneys. I can remember back to a time when ATC didn't have that capability. But I've been all over the lower 48 in just the last two or three years and have only found a couple of places where ATC able or wasn't proactively happy to help me stay away from the heavy stuff.

Paul, as much flying as you do, all over the country, you really need to add a Stormscope to that beautiful panel in that capable travel machine. What's a few AMUs compared to your neck? A used WX 900 is only 2 AMU from a dealer, the nicer WX 950 is probably 4 AMU. Plus installation.  

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Just now, Bob_Belville said:

Paul, as much flying as you do, all over the country, you really need to add a Stormscope to that beautiful panel in that capable travel machine. What's a few AMUs compared to your neck? A used WX 900 is only 2 AMU from a dealer, the nicer WX 950 is probably 4 AMU. Plus installation.  

A used WX-500 would display nicely on his Avidyne 540 and/or the Aspen and wouldn't require any panel work. And if he bought it for 50% of retail could justify it. :)

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5 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

A used WX-500 would display nicely on his Avidyne 540 and/or the Aspen and wouldn't require any panel work. And if he bought it for 50% of retail could justify it. :)

Bennett shows the used WX500 at the same price as the WX950 - $4195 - I'm sure Paul can find better pricing than Bennett. My personal preference is the stand alone display since the moving map GPS display gets pretty cluttered and when I'm flying near weather I am constantly clearing and zooming the SS... but to each her own. 

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1 minute ago, Bob_Belville said:

Bennett shows the used WX500 at the same price as the WX950 - $4195 - I'm sure Paul can find better pricing than Bennett. My personal preference is the stand alone display since the moving map GPS display gets pretty cluttered and when I'm flying near weather I am constantly clearing and zooming the SS... but to each her own. 

I agree, displaying it on the map isn't as useful. One thing that makes it easier on the Avidyne is that since there's a separate "Stormscope" page, he could watch that on the IFD100 app on his iPad to see just cells and strikes. I really enjoy spending other people's money. I think I may have talked him into the IFD 540 over the 440 originally.

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17 hours ago, neilpilot said:

In general, I agree that ATC's weather avoidance assist has improved greatly.  But remember that they are working with radar and ride reports, but unless I'm mistaken they do not have lightening data.  I fly with XM and a stormscope.  While I welcome ATC input I find that the stormscope input gives me a supplement that sometimes trumps what ATC supplies.

You do have to be careful to ask ATC where they are getting any weather info from.  Approach radar has a wavelength very close to NEXRAD radar, so they can see much the same levels of precip that NEXRAD can (although maybe not as good detail).  Center radar is a longer wavelength and cannot see precip very well unless it is heavy.  It can, however, see lightning strikes.

On the other hand, I think center controllers can get a NEXRAD overlay on their screen and provide information from NEXRAD data.  The problem, of course, is that their NEXRAD data is subject to the same inherent delay as any info you get through XM or FIS-B.

So if your margin for thunderstorm avoidance is low and you're working with a center facility, it would make sense to ask them whether they are getting their data from their radar ("plus's and H's") or whether they are getting their data from a NEXRAD overlay ("levels of precip").  If they are talking about light or moderate precip, I think that means you can assume they are going off a NEXRAD overlay.

Rod Machado has a terribly good description of ATC weather data and how to use it in his "Instrument Pilot's Survival Manual"

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