ArtVandelay Posted September 15, 2018 Report Share Posted September 15, 2018 Isn't this really the way you should land any SMALL plane, not just a Mooney? FIFY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBDiagMan Posted September 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2018 On 9/14/2018 at 9:40 PM, carusoam said: Nice thought provoking thread, MBD... Recommended for new to you plane... don’t touch anything until you are familair with the evils of distraction and how it works... you will find when the plane is new to you, the nose is on the ground about a second after the mains touch... while fumbling to raise flaps you might hit a variety of other switches... like the electric gear switch if you have one... Yep! On my C the flap control was unlike the thumb control on the F. It was a push button pull knob like a small mixture control and guess what?...... it was directly below the mixture control! The first short trip I took in it, I dumped flaps when rolling out and the engine quit. I was rolling out, so it didn’t hurt anything except it was one of my rare appearances at a towered airport so it was quite embarrassing. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiny moose Posted September 16, 2018 Report Share Posted September 16, 2018 On the correct speed/AOA is the answer for any airplane landing, fast in a mooney will result in a looong landing distance, or a nose wheel landing before the mains For new Mooney drivers. Go up high and get your stall speeds then go slow flight at 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 VSO/VS. don’t just practice level flight but climbs and descents for a few hundred feet. Go up high, and set up a a long descent in your landing configuration at one of those speeds of your choice but no higher than 1.3 trim for hands off with power set for slight descent, that’s your approach feel, use power to Contol rate of descent but keep a 200-300FPM descent, stay in this configuration for several minutes doing slight turns each way, hold headings but don’t stop descent. After you get that down you have a perfect opportunity to apply full power (slowly) for what your plane feels like in a go around situation(keep it dirty for a while, climbing at that same AS , then clean up slowly watching what pitch (trim) changes you need when cleaning up each item to transition to VX VY or other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShuRugal Posted September 16, 2018 Report Share Posted September 16, 2018 On 9/14/2018 at 12:36 PM, LANCECASPER said: I agree 100%. You can't make a Mooney land, you let it land. The only way you have enough runway to let it land is if your approach speed on final is stabilized and the right number for your airplane. You can also plan to accommodate the float - want or need to stick it in on the numbers for a shorter ground roll, but know that you're going to float a couple hundred feet? aim shorter, flare over the grass, float to the numbers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBDiagMan Posted September 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 Thanks for all the great information and ideas. Since I started this thread Thursday, I have not only gotten great information for the thread, but I have been able to put it to good use. I went out Friday morning and saw improvement, then there pretty decent ones Saturday morning before getting in the 140for the first flight after annual. Long story, but it ran up fine and got in the air fine then with probably about a thousand feet of runway left under me, it began a dead miss on one cylinder. It would climb about a hundred to a hundred fifty feet a minute. I tear dropped and put it back down safely and at that point I was pretty well ready to walk away from flying for the rest of the day. I ran it up and it was fine, so I think it is a sticky valve. Then..... this morning we had beautiful weather and I went out to do pattern work in the Mooney. I greased off probably the best landing I have done in it, thanks to all you mooneyspacers help. Went around for another. My approach wasn’t perfect, but acceptable. I put it down ever so slightly hard, like maybe a 6 inch drop in. It was rolling out nicely with it pulled back to lighten the nose, slowed down and then began vibrating like crazy. I pulled it back to lighten the nosewheel more and the vibration went away for a second or two then the nose wheel settled back down and it vibrated to a stop. I had a flat nose tire. My guilty conscience made me wonder if the slightly hard landing had anything to do with it, but we got it off the runway and in my hangar. Pulled the tire and it was punctured. Made me feel better knowing it wasn’t caused by a had landing. I have a meeting this afternoon and non aviation things to deal with for a few days. The tire should be in tomorrow. If I get weather Thursday, I will try to fly again, hopefully with power and inflated tires. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 10 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said: Thanks for all the great information and ideas. Since I started this thread Thursday, I have not only gotten great information for the thread, but I have been able to put it to good use. I went out Friday morning and saw improvement, then there pretty decent ones Saturday morning before getting in the 140for the first flight after annual. Long story, but it ran up fine and got in the air fine then with probably about a thousand feet of runway left under me, it began a dead miss on one cylinder. It would climb about a hundred to a hundred fifty feet a minute. I tear dropped and put it back down safely and at that point I was pretty well ready to walk away from flying for the rest of the day. I ran it up and it was fine, so I think it is a sticky valve. If you truly have sticky valve from Lycoming "morning sickness," it WILL happen again and will happen on take off when you can least afford it. That is worth getting taken care of before flying again, there is a non-invasive technique that most A&P's should know to ream out the valve guide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 27 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said: Thanks for all the great information and ideas. Since I started this thread Thursday, I have not only gotten great information for the thread, but I have been able to put it to good use. I went out Friday morning and saw improvement, then there pretty decent ones Saturday morning before getting in the 140for the first flight after annual. Long story, but it ran up fine and got in the air fine then with probably about a thousand feet of runway left under me, it began a dead miss on one cylinder. It would climb about a hundred to a hundred fifty feet a minute. I tear dropped and put it back down safely and at that point I was pretty well ready to walk away from flying for the rest of the day. I ran it up and it was fine, so I think it is a sticky valve. Morning sickness is upon start up. The coking on the valve stem keeps it from moving till the heat from the engine frees things up. You have something more serious that should found before leaving the earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 Stuck valve on departure is no fun... you only need one for it to stick in your memory... Does the C140 merit a JPI? If yes, you can review the flight history to see the tell-tales of stuck valves in the EGT lines... Cleaning the valve guides is a procedure often called the rope trick... In the O360, the valve stem gets bent when the valve hits the piston... Like the good Yetti said... better to find out before leaving the ground... Got a dental camera? Inspecting the exhaust valve might be a good idea... PP thoughts only, not a mechanic... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 If you truly have sticky valve from Lycoming "morning sickness," it WILL happen again and will happen on take off when you can least afford it. That is worth getting taken care of before flying again, there is a non-invasive technique that most A&P's should know to ream out the valve guide. Removing valves to ream them out sounds invasive to me.A truly non-invasive way, add MMO, go flying for an hour or more, if oil has 25 hours, replace the new oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 26 minutes ago, teejayevans said: Removing valves to ream them out sounds invasive to me. A truly non-invasive way, add MMO, go flying for an hour or more, if oil has 25 hours, replace the new oil. Not as invasive as changing a cylinder Adding MMO to prevent the problem might be reasonable, but if the valve has started sticking, it has now become a safety issue. Whether MMO works or not, I don't think I would be willing to go flying once it has stuck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Yetti said: Morning sickness is upon start up. The coking on the valve stem keeps it from moving till the heat from the engine frees things up. You have something more serious that should found before leaving the earth. I did look at a Mooney where the seller started a demo flight. He started up and the plane ran fine through the beginning of the runup, then started running very rough. Later, he reported it was a stuck valve and had the guide reamed out. So at least in that case, it did not happen during startup. Whether it's morning sickness or something worse, though, I agree it needs to be nailed down for safety Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 On 9/14/2018 at 1:19 PM, PilotCoyote said: On 9/14/2018 at 1:29 PM, gsxrpilot said: Personally I always retract the flaps after the nose wheel settles down and before using the brakes. Are any of you retracting the flaps while the nose wheel is being held off? Curious as to what is recommended re retracting the flaps. I haven’t flown my C yet. I've gotten into the reflex of retracting my C's flaps as soon as the mains have settled and not necessarily waiting for the nose gear to touch. It seems to help the mains stick in case I unintentionally touch down a little fast and lets me brake a little earlier - may come in handy someday if I really screw up and land long. I've no clue if my timing of the flap retraction is a good practice or not- I'm just throwing it out for discussion. I do always maintain strong back elevator back pressure until the nose settles firmly - probably the most important point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBDiagMan Posted September 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 Just to be clear, the apparent stuck valve was in my Cessna 140 with a Continental O200, not the Lycoming powered Mooney. The plane has been flawless for me for almost ten years. I hang onto it because it’s like an old friend. It is not a run of the mill 140. It was done as a restomod by someone who knowingly poured an enormous amount of money into that they knew full well they would never get out. It has a custom panel with six pack and center stack, an alternator, vacuum pump, zinc chromated framework and is just a great airplane. It doesn’t cost much to annual, to insure or to hangar in my oversized hangar so I have hung onto it. It will be interesting to watch myself and see if this episode causes me to lose my zeal for her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 16 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said: Just to be clear, the apparent stuck valve was in my Cessna 140 with a Continental O200, not the Lycoming powered Mooney. The plane has been flawless for me for almost ten years. I hang onto it because it’s like an old friend. It is not a run of the mill 140. It was done as a restomod by someone who knowingly poured an enormous amount of money into that they knew full well they would never get out. It has a custom panel with six pack and center stack, an alternator, vacuum pump, zinc chromated framework and is just a great airplane. It doesn’t cost much to annual, to insure or to hangar in my oversized hangar so I have hung onto it. It will be interesting to watch myself and see if this episode causes me to lose my zeal for her. Oooh, that kind of changes the picture. Don't know much about the O-200, hope it turns out ok. It sounds like a cool plane! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 57 minutes ago, DXB said: I've gotten into the reflex of retracting my C's flaps as soon as the mains have settled and not necessarily waiting for the nose gear to touch. It seems to help the mains stick in case I unintentionally touch down a little fast and lets me brake a little earlier - may come in handy someday if I really screw up and land long. I've no clue if my timing of the flap retraction is a good practice or not- I'm just throwing it out for discussion. I do always maintain strong back elevator back pressure until the nose settles firmly - probably the most important point. Why not just land half flaps and not worry about things on roll out? The difference between full flaps and half flaps is only 2-3 knots of stall speed yet the flaps are really close to the ground and push lots of air onto the ground. Which is opposite of "trying to stick the mains" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBDiagMan Posted September 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 Half flaps? I am itching to land with NO flaps, but I have an untold number of experienced pilots telling me I need to learn to land with full flaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBDiagMan Posted September 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 2 hours ago, teejayevans said: Removing valves to ream them out sounds invasive to me. A truly non-invasive way, add MMO, go flying for an hour or more, if oil has 25 hours, replace the new oil. Just out of annual. Oil and filter are fresh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShuRugal Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 11 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said: Half flaps? I am itching to land with NO flaps, but I have an untold number of experienced pilots telling me I need to learn to land with full flaps. full flaps is great - set it down with the barn doors giving you all that extra lift available, then suck 'em in and glue it to the runway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 Full flaps also needs more trim. If you do a shove all levers forward for a go around, you risk a departure stall with all that trim in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBDiagMan Posted September 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 Yes, I did a go around and had to push forward and dump flaps. It was good that it pulled out in that configuration with no power problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 1 hour ago, MBDiagMan said: Half flaps? I am itching to land with NO flaps, but I have an untold number of experienced pilots telling me I need to learn to land with full flaps. Your Mooney will land just fine in ANY flap configuration... mine sure does. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill98 Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 I am a fan of 0 flap landings. Makes me feel more in control especially with a crosswind. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShuRugal Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 41 minutes ago, Yetti said: Full flaps also needs more trim. If you do a shove all levers forward for a go around, you risk a departure stall with all that trim in. All of my go-arounds so far have been executed from full-flap trimmed for a nice stabilized 400'/min glidepath at 1.3 VS0. all have been trivial - roll the power on, start to climb, wheels up, flaps to around takeoff position, re-trim as the aircraft accelerates, and before you know it you're in a normal takeoff climbout. And that's with the hand-wheel trim and hand pump flaps. The fancy planes with electric gizmos should have it real easy, just some thumb swipes on that trim switch. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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