MBDiagMan

Does an F Nose Bounce more than a C?

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I landed my C as if it were my Cessna 140.  No flaps, tail low, the mains would hit and then the nose wheel would flop down and stay down.

Now with the F I am trying to fly it more like one should fly a complex aircraft.  I use full flaps, still tail a little low, and have it trimmed for about 80 when the power is chopped.  It sets onto the mains nicely, but the nose wants to bounce.  If the bounce is not bad, I simply push it forward and hold the nose down.  Kind of the opposite of pulling it back in the Cessna 140 to hold the tail down.

I can’t seem to find that sweet trim spot that brings it in mains first,but le s the nose wheel glue to the runway.  I just don’t remember the C ever wanting to bounce the nose wheel.

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I landed my C as if it were my Cessna 140.  No flaps, tail low, the mains would hit and then the nose wheel would flop down and stay down.
Now with the F I am trying to fly it more like one should fly a complex aircraft.  I use full flaps, still tail a little low, and have it trimmed for about 80 when the power is chopped.  It sets onto the mains nicely, but the nose wants to bounce.  If the bounce is not bad, I simply push it forward and hold the nose down.  Kind of the opposite of pulling it back in the Cessna 140 to hold the tail down.
I can’t seem to find that sweet trim spot that brings it in mains first,but le s the nose wheel glue to the runway.  I just don’t remember the C ever wanting to bounce the nose wheel.


You want to hold the nose wheel off. It will set down and stay. When it bounces, it is usually too much speed and the pilot wanting to put the nose down.


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Thanks :Marauder!  Makes sense.  Pull it back enough to keep it off the ground without getting airborne again I suppose.

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20 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

Thanks :Marauder!  Makes sense.  Pull it back enough to keep it off the ground without getting airborne again I suppose.

I had time in a M20B before buying my F...saw the same issue as you are having when I transitioned.  I use the same approach as you, trimmed for 80, 70-75 over the fence and after planting the mains I have to hold the nose off until it settles, otherwise a bit of a bounce.

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Same. Lands differently than the E. Lots more nose up trim in the F, too (I barely remember touching the trim wheel in the E, the F needs most of it).

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I have several hours and a handful of landings in an F. It did much better with Full Flaps, while my C lands well with Takeoff Flaps, and a touch more up or down as required to stay on speed. The F I flew only had 3-position flaps, while my C's are infinitely adjustable (both electric). The nose of the F is also heavier, and it was a pain the couple of times I had to do a hot start.

Land it on speed and hold the nose up just like in your Cessna. If the nose bounces, you are too fast. Never try to force any Mooney to land, it will settle down when and only when it is ready, meaning at the right speed for its weight on that landing.

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I have gotten in the habit of pulling back on the yoke pretty significantly the moment the mains touch down. If your approach speed was at 80 mph, and you are about to stall when the mains touch, you won’t hardly feel the nose wheel kiss the ground. Took me a long time to figure that out. Beeen great ever since. 

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We should fly together some... come ride along in my K and I'll ride with you in your F. They're both mid-bodies and should land basically the same way.

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The C and the O both bounce the same...

Could be the same pilot flying both planes... :)

Why this happens....

The sweet spot for a smooth landing is only a few kias wide... or mph-ias wide...

Each plane and load has a sliding scale for that sweet spot...

Each plane and configuration dissipates energy slightly differently...

If plan A is to come in fast, and dissipate energy in ground effect, before allowing the plane to settle...   you have good feel and skill for your plane...

If you take the cookbook/engineer approach... you use the DonKaye method of calculating the sweet spot and executing the landing right on the calculated numbers... adjust your numbers slightly to meet your requirements for perfection.

All Mooneys are very similar... just the sweet spot moves up with MGTOW.... or LW to be specific... the fun comes when you have mph and kias in the different planes... there is about 15% differences in their speeds...matching the 15% difference from mph to knots....

 

For fun.  Do some slow flight at altitude.... safely define the point where the stall horn comes on.... 

Use what you defined in slow flight to adjust how you land the plane...

This is technically calibrating the seat of your pants. I found it to work really well...

If you are bouncing the landing, you are probably 5-10kias faster than you want to be...

this is a challenge to determine while landing...

When is the last time you actually see the ASI?  It really helps to have well developed instrument scan skills while scanning out the windows side and front....

If the last time you checked the ASI, was on the turn to final... you could be a bit fast over the numbers....

If you haven’t looked out the side window since you crossed the fence, you could be a bit high over the numbers...

If Engineering and instrument scanning aren’t your bag...  the magic of a calibrated AOAi could be for you!   201er has this instrument, his landings are always on the centerline, mains first, stall horn chirp, nose wheel chirp... watch his videos for the evidence...

 

Really be aware... if you let it... a Mooney will stop flying easily at 10’agl...  a solid Landing is assured!

 

You know you are 10kias fast... when you try to land on the numbers, but your touchdown occurs 1k’ later... use your Cloudahoy app with a WAAS source... to see your truth....

Don’t force the nose down to land on the numbers... it will be a bounce on the numbers instead...

And that is why it happens....  how was that?

PP thoughts only, stuff I became aware of over time.... not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

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5 hours ago, carusoam said:

 

You know you are 10kias fast... when you try to land on the numbers, but your touchdown occurs 1k’ later... use your Cloudahoy app with a WAAS source... to see your truth....

Don’t force the nose down to land on the numbers... it will be a bounce on the numbers instead...

Truth! Anthony also heard Bob Kromer's talk one Summit--every knot too fast when you flare will cause an extra 100' of float.

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2 hours ago, Hank said:

Truth! Anthony also heard Bob Kromer's talk one Summit--every knot too fast when you flare will cause an extra 100' of float.

The secret to a good landing is to LET it float... as long as it wants to float. If it want's another 100', try to get it to float 200.  The time to shorten the floating distance is before you get over the runway. Once crossing the numbers, the best option is to keep it floating as long as you can. You'll have the smoothest landings ever.

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42 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

The secret to a good landing is to LET it float... as long as it wants to float. If it want's another 100', try to get it to float 200.  The time to shorten the floating distance is before you get over the runway. Once crossing the numbers, the best option is to keep it floating as long as you can. You'll have the smoothest landings ever.

I agree 100%. You can't make a Mooney land, you let it land. The only way you have enough runway to let it land is if your approach speed on final is stabilized and the right number for your airplane.

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15 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

I landed my C as if it were my Cessna 140.  No flaps, tail low, the mains would hit and then the nose wheel would flop down and stay down.

Now with the F I am trying to fly it more like one should fly a complex aircraft.  I use full flaps, still tail a little low, and have it trimmed for about 80 when the power is chopped.  It sets onto the mains nicely, but the nose wants to bounce.  If the bounce is not bad, I simply push it forward and hold the nose down.  Kind of the opposite of pulling it back in the Cessna 140 to hold the tail down.

I can’t seem to find that sweet trim spot that brings it in mains first,but le s the nose wheel glue to the runway.  I just don’t remember the C ever wanting to bounce the nose wheel.

I suspect that the biggest difference between your C landings and your F bouncing is the flaps, not the extra leg room in the rear seats. IOW, using full flaps in the short body would have given you similar issues. It's all about speed. With full flaps you simple have to get rid of the excess speed before touch down or our stiff legged gear will bounce you up. Under no circumstances should you push the nose down to "plant it on the runway". That's a recipe for a prop strike.

FWIW, with full flaps in my E the nose trim is full up when landing unless I have rear seat passengers and a more rearward CG.

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15 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

I landed my C as if it were my Cessna 140.  No flaps, tail low, the mains would hit and then the nose wheel would flop down and stay down.

Now with the F I am trying to fly it more like one should fly a complex aircraft.  I use full flaps, still tail a little low, and have it trimmed for about 80 when the power is chopped.  It sets onto the mains nicely, but the nose wants to bounce.  If the bounce is not bad, I simply push it forward and hold the nose down.  Kind of the opposite of pulling it back in the Cessna 140 to hold the tail down.

I can’t seem to find that sweet trim spot that brings it in mains first,but le s the nose wheel glue to the runway.  I just don’t remember the C ever wanting to bounce the nose wheel.

I  cringe when I hear someone say, "chop the power".  Airplanes in non aerobatic flight should be flown gently--with grace.  Make your passengers WANT to fly with you again, not run away from you.  If your speed was correct on final then the power should be "WITHDRAWN" at the same rate that you raise the nose in the flare.  Never EVER, EVER push the nose forward to keep the nose on the ground after landing.   This will lead to a porpoise and potential prop strike.   At the time you cross the threshold your landing distance has already been determined, so it's a good idea to have the crossing speed correct.  Trying to force the airplane to land when it doesn't want to is folly and a good way to hurt both yourself and your airplane.

As Wayne Fisher once said, "Remember, we make good landings when we want to fly and the airplane wants to land, and we make bad landings when we want to land and the airplane wants to fly!"

http://www.donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Wayne_Fisher_on_Landings.html

http://www.donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Perfect_Your_Landings.html

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Are any of you retracting the flaps while the nose wheel is being held off? Curious as to what is recommended re retracting the flaps. I haven’t flown my C yet.

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What Don said.  I never push the yoke in that close to the ground.  Keep it pulled back.  Airplane will land when its good and ready.

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Personally I always retract the flaps after the nose wheel settles down and before using the brakes.

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3 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Personally I always retract the flaps after the nose wheel settles down and before using the brakes.

Makes sense. Thank you.

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I opened this thread with complete confidence that it would generate great information and advice.  Thanks very much to everyone.

Paul are you attending the MooneyMAX in October?  If so, maybe we will get a chance to fly then.

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2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Personally I always retract the flaps after the nose wheel settles down and before using the brakes.

Me, too. Nose wheel down, flaps up; no brakes until 50 mph or less.

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24 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

I opened this thread with complete confidence that it would generate great information and advice.  Thanks very much to everyone.

Paul are you attending the MooneyMAX in October?  If so, maybe we will get a chance to fly then.

I'm a definite maybe. But I'm trying to make it happen.

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7 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

I opened this thread with complete confidence that it would generate great information and advice.  Thanks very much to everyone.

Paul are you attending the MooneyMAX in October?  If so, maybe we will get a chance to fly then.

Nice thought provoking thread, MBD...

 

9 hours ago, PilotCoyote said:

Are any of you retracting the flaps while the nose wheel is being held off? Curious as to what is recommended re retracting the flaps. I haven’t flown my C yet.

Recommended for new to you plane... don’t touch anything until you are familair with the evils of distraction and how it works...

you will find when the plane is new to you, the nose is on the ground about a second after the mains touch...  while fumbling to raise flaps you might hit a variety of other switches...  like the electric gear switch if you have one...

Not saying this is a challenge for you.  But it has challenged a few other people...

Multi-tasking during the landing phase is pretty high already... if you have difficulty making position reports around the pattern, this is a sign that your super powers may need a recharge....

If your brain is being tasked with all the speed, altitude, power settings, rpm, bank angles, configuration changes, trim setting, and position reports...

Do you really want to raise the flaps in that one available second? 

You will find that landing distance is directly related to how much excess speed you are carrying... then the wheels are on the ground... pull the yoke back to go with the heavy braking (after Hank’s magic speed...)

There are a couple of short cuts to improve the braking/distance... but this requires all three wheels to be down first... floating 1000’, touching down long, the brain will try to rush things... start braking to soon comes with how much runway you have left... things can get ugly in seconds...

Hank gave a great piece of detail... a speed where braking becomes most effective...  above that is a speed where braking becomes the most expensive....

Nothing like the feeling you get when exposing your first set of threads on your new expensive tires... :)

Most people in the CB club are looking to preserve the tires and brakes.... controlling excess Airspeed is a great way to save a few dollars, and still make the turn off...

To improve the time between mains and nose touching.... would require Engineering your WnB... if you set your balance to be near the back of the envelope, you might be able to extend this to two seconds...  Cg and wheel placement are much different than Brand C and other planes...

You are not going to ever see a Mooney with it’s tail covered in snow pointing to the sky.  Snow isn’t nearly dense enough... A few sand bags...

 

With all that detail, I can see why Transition Training has so much value....

 

Best regards,

-a-

 

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11 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Once crossing the numbers, the best option is to keep it floating as long as you can.

Isn't this really the way you should land any plane, not just a Mooney?  The way my instructor put it, "Aim for the runway and miss for as long as possible."  I know I'm a pretty new pilot, but in my 400 or so landings, I can only think of two landings where I bounced, once before I got my license and once in the Mooney.  Float, yes; balloon, occasionally; bounce, nope.

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