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EI Engine monitors?


FloridaMan

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Not really enough details to say - which EDM vs EI model are you switching too? Regardless though, EI makes great monitors; especially their MVP-50. Not that it matters, but I personally went with the EDM 900 since I felt it was a better fit for my Mooney panel. Although there are some differences in the probe types used by manufacturers, both EI and EDM use the better type K probes. But EDM uses a grounded type K versus the ungrounded type K used by EI. Independent research over the years has shown the grounded type K are bit more accurate despite what EI's marketing literature claims - the EI probes actually under report temp a bit compared to the grounded version. But both type K probes are superior to the type J probes used by Insight/Gem monitors. Lastly I prefer the solid screw connectors used by EDM over the barrel connectors used by EI which have been a source of loose/weak connections for some. All of the above, with respect to probe differences between EI and EDM, is pretty minor stuff to a pilot.  

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I have CGR30P monitor and I love it. It is a primary replacement and in my '67 F it replaced all the engine instrument except 2 fuel level gages.

I made the install with help of my IA and didn't find it complex but it takes time to time all the old stuff out. MVP-50 is better, no doubt about that, but CGR30 fit in standard instrument hole made it no brainer as at the time I didn't want to update original panel.

I am not sure about barrel connectors Paul is referring but now, CGR30 came with cylindrical connector with set screw that positively holds the probe wire(s). EI says that is all you need but I've use heat gun and heat shrinks to seal it from fluids. Very easy and durable.

 

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10 minutes ago, Igor_U said:

I am not sure about barrel connectors Paul is referring but now, CGR30 came with cylindrical connector with set screw that positively holds the probe wire(s). EI says that is all you need but I've use heat gun and heat shrinks to seal it from fluids. Very easy and durable.

Nice technique, Igor!  I keep hearing the guy who did our EAA workshop on electrical connections--"Strain relief, people, strain relief!"

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fyi...I did just install a JPI 830 and it is of tremendous value for the M20J especially when compared to other gages and avionic prices.  Working with my A&P under his supervision, I was able to install all the sensors and make up all the wire connections in the engine bay which gave me a detail oriented quality job while saving money.

Three times I had minor issues and I called JPI...first time no wait and good info.  The second time some of the wire pins snapped off, they quickly sent some replacement pins for the install.  Third time I had about a 5 minute wait, and they were most helpful answering all my questions in a professional and quality way.

Buying the 830 on sale for only $2,259 was a tremendous value.

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4 hours ago, MIm20c said:

Note to JPI - hire some people who actually WANT to work and provide some level of customer service. 

In the USA customers always interfere with making profits...try calling Garmin sometime if you really want to put your head through a wall.....

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Can’t comment on EI but with JPI I’ve had very good service when needed, which hasn’t been often during the past 16 years that their equipment have been in my Mooney. Although about that time there were stories of lousy customer service involving the owner of the company but since then according to my Avionics tech it’s been quite good.

Last year I had software issues with my 830 and the guy from tech support patiently guided me through via the phone in a couple of calls resulting in no more issues. Apart from an occasional probe failure that is the only issue I’ve had.

On the subject of probes, if I need to change out an EGT probe,  I’ll change the others as well. Imagine spending your entire life with your head stuck in an exhaust? :wacko:

An EDM 930 is on my future wishlist.

 

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17 hours ago, Antares said:

Thinking about canceling my order with JPI due to customer service issues. Would I be shooting myself in the foot by switching to EI for a monitor?

Just cancel it.  I have an MVP-50 because of exactly what you stated.  JPI's customer nonservice.  I have not been disappointed. In fact, I think the MVP-50 is superior to what I was looking at.  Thank you JPI.......

Edited by tony
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I've had a JPI EDM 930 for 6 years. The unit has been back to the factory twice, once to trace an issue and once for modification for CiES digital fuel sensors. I have had occasion to contact customer service and technical support (via email) quite a few times with annoying type issues, not failures. Overall I would rate JPI CS/TS pretty good and I certainly would not change vendors on that score. 

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On 9/13/2018 at 9:39 AM, kortopates said:

Not really enough details to say - which EDM vs EI model are you switching too? Regardless though, EI makes great monitors; especially their MVP-50. Not that it matters, but I personally went with the EDM 900 since I felt it was a better fit for my Mooney panel. Although there are some differences in the probe types used by manufacturers, both EI and EDM use the better type K probes. But EDM uses a grounded type K versus the ungrounded type K used by EI. Independent research over the years has shown the grounded type K are bit more accurate despite what EI's marketing literature claims - the EI probes actually under report temp a bit compared to the grounded version. But both type K probes are superior to the type J probes used by Insight/Gem monitors. Lastly I prefer the solid screw connectors used by EDM over the barrel connectors used by EI which have been a source of loose/weak connections for some. All of the above, with respect to probe differences between EI and EDM, is pretty minor stuff to a pilot.  

I'm curious where you got your information from.  Not criticizing, but I'd appreciate if your could provide the sources of the independent research as I'd like to read it. Regarding accuracy, you can take any of our probes and perform three very easy test that will result in three data points.  For example, let's take a look at a CHT probe.  Before starting the engine, verify that the CHT is reporting OAT, within a degree or two.  This test works better if the aircraft is in a hangar, where the sun cannot influence temp.  Second, remove the probe and submerge it in an ice bath (70% ice/30% water).  CHT should read 32°F within a degree or two.  Lastly, submerge the probe in boiling water.  Depending on elevation, you should see a temperature very near 212°F.  

Probe "accuracy" can depend on many factors, location being the most important.  A probe installed in the cylinder well will result in a different temperature from an upper or lower spark plug gasket probe.  The upper will typically indicate cooler than the well probe due to engine baffling and the lower spark plug probe will typically indicate hotter due the proximity to the exhaust.  Use of fire sleeving can assist with this. 

EGT probe temperatures are very much dependent on the location of the probe, type of thermocouple used, thickness of the probe, etc.  That is why no manufacture specifies EGT limits.  While absolute EGT should be considered in normal operation of the engine, temperature relative to peak are more important.

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On 9/13/2018 at 12:39 PM, kortopates said:

Not really enough details to say - which EDM vs EI model are you switching too? Regardless though, EI makes great monitors; especially their MVP-50. Not that it matters, but I personally went with the EDM 900 since I felt it was a better fit for my Mooney panel. Although there are some differences in the probe types used by manufacturers, both EI and EDM use the better type K probes. But EDM uses a grounded type K versus the ungrounded type K used by EI. Independent research over the years has shown the grounded type K are bit more accurate despite what EI's marketing literature claims - the EI probes actually under report temp a bit compared to the grounded version. But both type K probes are superior to the type J probes used by Insight/Gem monitors. Lastly I prefer the solid screw connectors used by EDM over the barrel connectors used by EI which have been a source of loose/weak connections for some. All of the above, with respect to probe differences between EI and EDM, is pretty minor stuff to a pilot.  

more accurate or more efficient heat transfer to the thermocouple?

"

What are the main differences between a grounded and ungrounded thermocouple?

Grounded thermocouple: This type of temperature measurement device has the advantage of more efficient heat transfer. With the junction welded to the metal sheath, a grounded thermocouple will respond faster to temperature changes because the metal-to-metal contact creates a shorter thermal pathway compared to an ungrounded thermocouple. However, this grounding can create an undesirable side effect. By welding the junction to the sheath, an electrical connection is also made between the wires and the sheath. This can lead to a “ground loop” if the sensor is connected to earth ground at the point of measurement and if the wires are connected to a controller, which is grounded in another location. The two grounds may not be at the same voltage potential, thus creating an undesired circuit that may damage equipment. Ungrounded thermocouple: An ungrounded thermocouple is not welded to the metal sheath and typically has nonconductive powder, like magnesium oxide, surrounding the junction at the sensor’s tip. This material slows the thermal transfer from the media being measured to the junction of the thermocouple. Because the thermocouple wire is electrically isolated from the metal sheath and case, using an ungrounded thermocouple reduces the risk of ground loops.

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51 minutes ago, oregon87 said:

I'm curious where you got your information from.  Not criticizing, but I'd appreciate if your could provide the sources of the independent research as I'd like to read it. Regarding accuracy, you can take any of our probes and perform three very easy test that will result in three data points.  For example, let's take a look at a CHT probe.  Before starting the engine, verify that the CHT is reporting OAT, within a degree or two.  This test works better if the aircraft is in a hangar, where the sun cannot influence temp.  Second, remove the probe and submerge it in an ice bath (70% ice/30% water).  CHT should read 32°F within a degree or two.  Lastly, submerge the probe in boiling water.  Depending on elevation, you should see a temperature very near 212°F.  

Probe "accuracy" can depend on many factors, location being the most important.  A probe installed in the cylinder well will result in a different temperature from an upper or lower spark plug gasket probe.  The upper will typically indicate cooler than the well probe due to engine baffling and the lower spark plug probe will typically indicate hotter due the proximity to the exhaust.  Use of fire sleeving can assist with this. 

EGT probe temperatures are very much dependent on the location of the probe, type of thermocouple used, thickness of the probe, etc.  That is why no manufacture specifies EGT limits.  While absolute EGT should be considered in normal operation of the engine, temperature relative to peak are more important.

To Oregon 87 from EI:  I have the MVP-50 and love it.  The extra screens compared to the JPI 930 made it a no brainer when I investigated which one to put in my plane.  However, it's CHT readings are about 50° cooler than when I had the JPI 700.  Originally I thought that was great, but is it for real?  Would you recommend putting the fire sleeving on all CHT probes?  I'm thinking about doing it at Annual this year?  Thanks for monitoring this list.

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I'd perform the three tests I described in my previous post and see what you get.  If all three data points are within a couple of degrees of what is expected, it is entirely possible that the JPI was reporting incorrect temperatures.  This is not an indictment of JPI's products, the same tests can be performed on their equipment.  What type of probes were used with the EDM700?  Cylinder well?  Spark plug gasket?  What type of probes are currently installed with your MVP-50?  Different locations will impact temperatures.  

Edited by oregon87
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I would have installed an EI product if they made one to match the EDM-900. I would certainly choose the MVP-50 over the EDM-930, but just didn't have the real estate. And the CGR-P and C seems silly in that it takes two of them to fully replace all the gauges the EDM-900 replaces in a smaller footprint.

I've always liked the EI stuff. I just wish they made a small screen version of the MVP-50... maybe an MVP-40 ;-)

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I think both companies could learn from each other.

JPI could put more screen pages with more info on their 900 & 930.

EI could bring their graphic interface into the 21st Century. Although the MVP50 has a lot of nice features, the interface looks like a 386 PC from the early 90's running MS-DOS. The JPI interface definitely looks a lot more modern in panels with Aspens or Garmin glass. And yes with better screen resolution they could make a smaller MVP 30 or 40 for smaller panels.

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On 9/13/2018 at 9:02 AM, Antares said:

Thinking about canceling my order with JPI due to customer service issues. Would I be shooting myself in the foot by switching to EI for a monitor?

Thats too bad about your experience with JPI.  I am a dealer for them and was a customer before that and have had good interactions with them.  If you would like to stick with JPI let me know via PM what your issues are and what product your are trying to order, I may even be able to get you a better price.  As for EI I think they make a great product (I hope to be a EI dealer soon) as well and Oregon87 offers great info on the forum.  As others have said they both have their strengths but for me it comes down to panel real estate and which brand fits better in my application.  Our shop has installed both JPI & EI and I have EI & JPI instruments in my personal Mooney, I have truly found that both companies make a great product and you would NOT be shooting yourself in the foot either way.

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Spoke to JPI 4 times today to fix an issue with the 830 after a software upgrade. They picked up right away and were very friendly and patient each time. In the end, they told me to send the unit in which would have been a pain, but I was able to figure out how to fix the software bug and they guided me through reprogramming everything. It’s nice to talk to someone in tech support that actually knows the product!

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