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Landing a Mooney - Safety Culture


Yetti

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9 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

A few months ago I could have made a similar, but not as confident statement about my C.  When I moved to the F, modified to a point of essentially being a J, I was overwhelmed for awhile.  It all started coming together yesterday, with some confidence building this morning.  I still have awhile to go before I can be as confident as the above statement.  I think the important thing is to try different things under different conditions.

The one thing that I took out of the bag of tricks for the F is slips.  I slipped the C as if it were my Cessna 140.  I have been told that when slipping an F or J, jamming the rudders too fast can break it into a spin.  I will pass on that until. learn much more.

Your F should not really be a huge transition from a C. Slips are fine.  I do them occasionally when needed.  It's been suggested that a tail stall is possible in a slip (I've tried to induce a tail stall and never been successful), keeping IAS above 80MIAS will keep well away from a possible tail stall.

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4 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

I think my employer's FOQA gate keepers would be a-calling me if I practiced "a well timed stall" on landings.

While I like the stall warning to be chirping as I touch down in my Mooney, the plane is not fully stalled

.  Now, in my tail dragger, that's a different plane.  A full stall landing is exactly that.

Different planes; they both fly by design numbers, but they definitely don't land the same.

If the plane does not have adequate lift to fly, it is a full stall landing.  Areas of the wing are generating lift at taxi speed but you're not flying.

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5 hours ago, Marauder said:

 


I have a closet full of landing videos of Mooneys. There are 3 active Mooneys on my field and we are always critiquing each other landings. Here is one.

 

 

 

 

 



Personally I can say I have made the best landing I ever made in an airplane in a Mooney. I can also say that I have made the worst landing I ever made in a Mooney.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

6.5???? You're a generous soul!

Edited by Shadrach
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3 hours ago, Yetti said:

 For me based on my Instructor a bad landing is when the front tire is not on the center line measured in inches missed.  

1

I can hear it now from my primary days:

(Taxiing along quietly)

CFI ".............well damn. That's a shame..."
Me: ".....what? what is it?!?!"
CFI "those lines. i was just thinking its a shame some poor old soul poured sweat and tears painting those centerline markings and you arent even using them"


 

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I never look at it from the word landing, maybe I was fortunate but my CFI and transition training emphasized flying it onto the runway and how well I did/do that would either provide me the opportunity to safely stop or deal with what happens in that phase of flight. I still have a lot to learn as I am a relatively low time pilot, but, I definitely do appreciate threads and conversations like this and the varying opinions.

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What really helped me become better at landing when I was relatively new....

Stop trying to land the airplane.

Do the approach at an appropriate speed and then when the runway is made, pull the power, then you get at an appropriate height level off just a few feet above the runway, and just keep it flying along level to the runway for as long as possible.  Keep flying as long as possible in ground effect.  That means let it float if it wants to float.  Or it will land when its ready.  This will require gradually pulling back on the yoke since angle of attack will increase and then when it can't fly anymore it will just settle down.

...so never try and land the airplane.  

Also this helps - once you are in that runway environment, don't be looking down at the pavement right in front of the airplane.  Look way down the runway.  Its hard to say why that helps since I think its more psychology but it helps me.

E

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7 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

What really helped me become better at landing when I was relatively new....

Stop trying to land the airplane.

Do the approach at an appropriate speed and then when the runway is made, pull the power, then you get at an appropriate height level off just a few feet above the runway, and just keep it flying along level to the runway for as long as possible.  Keep flying as long as possible in ground effect.  That means let it float if it wants to float.  Or it will land when its ready.  This will require gradually pulling back on the yoke since angle of attack will increase and then when it can't fly anymore it will just settle down.

...so never try and land the airplane.  

Also this helps - once you are in that runway environment, don't be looking down at the pavement right in front of the airplane.  Look way down the runway.  Its hard to say why that helps since I think its more psychology but it helps me.

E

And it still works today... 

I'll bet a tank of Avgas that all the prop strikes are not from being too fast but from trying to force the airplane to land instead of keeping it floating until it lands itself.

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52 minutes ago, Raptor05121 said:

I can hear it now from my primary days:

(Taxiing along quietly)

CFI ".............well damn. That's a shame..."
Me: ".....what? what is it?!?!"
CFI "those lines. i was just thinking its a shame some poor old soul poured sweat and tears painting those centerline markings and you arent even using them"
 

I will get a "N12345 now landing on 16 Right. "  When flying with Cmdr.   When you realize grading the landings is what is done on the carriers as a mark of good airmanship you will up your game.  Demanding more of yourself and flying the plane with precision is only fitting of the airframe.   Keep sloughing off and being sucky will get you into trouble.    

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4 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

And it still works today... 

I'll bet a tank of Avgas that all the prop strikes are not from being too fast but from trying to force the airplane to land instead of keeping it floating until it lands itself.

If you add a modicum of precision you can fly it on at pretty much any speed.   May not get it stopped in time but the roll cage will most likely do it's job which is a better outcome than falling 100-200 feet from the sky.

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There are bumps at my home and if you land on them it will send you back up again so to do a squeaker you land before or after the bumps, never on the bumps.  At my home drome my goal is to be off by the 1000 foot exit and this is the smoothest part of the runway because nobody else lands on it.  Sometimes I can do that easily.  Sometimes I could do it but I'd have to use the brakes and I just don't like to stand on my brand new brakes and tires. ;)  But I couldn't tell you the last time I was not easily off the runway by the 2000 ft exit.  

I also agree that if I go to a class C or D towered airport that is 7 or 8 thousand feet long then for some reason I just don't have that in my head and it takes more runway.

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I'll throw in my $.02 as a low time pilot with about a year of Mooney experience.  When I refer to "on my numbers," I'm referring to a specific number I have in my mind as I fly my approach.  That number varies based on flaps, gross weight, and wind gusts.  I'll admit, it's mostly a SWAG, but it's my approach speed for that landing that I do not want to deviate from.

I also have to agree that most Mooney pilots fly from long paved runways to other long paved runways.  I started a thread a while back asking for help with my short field technique and you'd have thought I asked about neurosurgery.  There were 226 views, but I only got a total of 4 responses and only 2 of those sounded like they were experienced with short fields.  It seems some on here think that a 3000' runway qualifies as a short field.

As for landing technique, my instructor told me to aim for the runway and just miss it for as long as possible (on center line of course).  I think I count the number of times I've let the nose wheel touch first using only my thumbs.  Did I mention I was a low time pilot. ;)

As for the poster who asked about slipping the F model, my instructor who flew an F said I could slip it just like any other plane.  Although, he reminded me that if I needed to slip it on a normal approach, a go-around might be a better option.  If I didn't have the slip in my bag of tricks, I'm not sure I could make the turnoff 1700' past the 25' power lines.  Miss that and the runway narrows to 25', so turning around means get out and push!

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32 minutes ago, Yetti said:

If you add a modicum of precision you can fly it on at pretty much any speed.   May not get it stopped in time but the roll cage will most likely do it's job which is a better outcome than falling 100-200 feet from the sky.

In my estimation, there is a huge difference between "landing" and driving the airplane into the ground when it is nowhere near on-speed.

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I'll contribute.  I landed at Catalina (AVX) a few weeks ago.  It's not short (even though many pilots think it is), it's a little bumpy, but mainly it has a cliff right at the numbers.  You can get some pretty good sink and/or buffeting there.  So, I flew a steep approach, with a touch of power in.  As I leveled off in ground effect, I added just a smidge more and held her off as long as I could.  That's not how I usually land, at all.   Like Yeti said, it is nice to have other methods in your bag of tricks.  Flying 70mph on short final might be a bad idea if the winds are swirling, or short final is right over buildings or trees, or other causes of shifting air.  Landing on the numbers every time is likewise not always the best.  What if you're following a 787 and need to land past the 1000' markers?  Do you know what your sight picture should look like to put the plane down 1500' down the runway (or more!)?

 

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I'll contribute.  I landed at Catalina (AVX) a few weeks ago.  It's not short (even though many pilots think it is), it's a little bumpy, but mainly it has a cliff right at the numbers.  You can get some pretty good sink and/or buffeting there.  So, I flew a steep approach, with a touch of power in.  As I leveled off in ground effect, I added just a smidge more and held her off as long as I could.  That's not how I usually land, at all.   Like Yeti said, it is nice to have other methods in your bag of tricks.  Flying 70mph on short final might be a bad idea if the winds are swirling, or short final is right over buildings or trees, or other causes of shifting air.  Landing on the numbers every time is likewise not always the best.  What if you're following a 787 and need to land past the 1000' markers?  Do you know what your sight picture should look like to put the plane down 1500' down the runway (or more!)?
 


What a stall horn! Sounds like the horn on an electric train I had as a kid.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

What really helped me become better at landing when I was relatively new....

Stop trying to land the airplane.

Do the approach at an appropriate speed and then when the runway is made, pull the power, then you get at an appropriate height level off just a few feet above the runway, and just keep it flying along level to the runway for as long as possible.  Keep flying as long as possible in ground effect.  That means let it float if it wants to float.  Or it will land when its ready.  This will require gradually pulling back on the yoke since angle of attack will increase and then when it can't fly anymore it will just settle down.

...so never try and land the airplane.  

Also this helps - once you are in that runway environment, don't be looking down at the pavement right in front of the airplane.  Look way down the runway.  Its hard to say why that helps since I think its more psychology but it helps me.

E

The "gradually" is very key to floating along and settling down nicely. If you pull back a little too much it will balloon up, which is still recoverable if you don't over-react.

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1 hour ago, Mooneymite said:

In my estimation, there is a huge difference between "landing" and driving the airplane into the ground when it is nowhere near on-speed.

GSXR will chime in about how the mooney formation lands at 90mph.   

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47 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I'll contribute.  I landed at Catalina (AVX) a few weeks ago.  It's not short (even though many pilots think it is), it's a little bumpy, but mainly it has a cliff right at the numbers.  You can get some pretty good sink and/or buffeting there.  So, I flew a steep approach, with a touch of power in.  As I leveled off in ground effect, I added just a smidge more and held her off as long as I could.  That's not how I usually land, at all.   Like Yeti said, it is nice to have other methods in your bag of tricks.  Flying 70mph on short final might be a bad idea if the winds are swirling, or short final is right over buildings or trees, or other causes of shifting air.  Landing on the numbers every time is likewise not always the best.  What if you're following a 787 and need to land past the 1000' markers?  Do you know what your sight picture should look like to put the plane down 1500' down the runway (or more!)?

 

God, that runway looks to be in awful condition!  With the cliff at the runway edge and landing into a headwind, at the numbers you'd expect to suddenly get extra float and land long.  It'd be the opposite landing over a bunch of buildings--you'd expect to suddenly get extra sink and land short.

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2 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

I can hear it now from my primary days:

(Taxiing along quietly)

CFI ".............well damn. That's a shame..."
Me: ".....what? what is it?!?!"
CFI "those lines. i was just thinking its a shame some poor old soul poured sweat and tears painting those centerline markings and you arent even using them"


 

Upon making my first real greaser in the C150 I was training in my instructor looked over and said “that was a nice touch down. Do you have something against the centerline?” That was twenty years ago. I haven’t seen him in 12 years. We’ll be having dinner next week and I’m looking forward to letting him know that I still hear a few of his choice phrases when I do something I don’t like.

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5 minutes ago, Yetti said:

GSXR will chime in about how the mooney formation lands at 90mph.   

Yep. Come fly formation with us sometime. You'll experience the smoothest Mooney landings ever. Our SOP is to fly final at 90 Knots and pull the power at 100 ft right over the numbers. Of course no flaps. But it's true, we only land in formation Elements on long runways. And we always roll to the end as there is likely another Element landing behind us.

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8 minutes ago, Yetti said:

GSXR will chime in about how the mooney formation lands at 90mph.   

They really don’t touchdown at 90 from what I’ve been told they cross the numbers at 90. Nevertheless, if you don’t have an operational need to fly the plane on at 30 mph above stall, why would you?  Why 90mph? Why not 120mph or better yet 140mph? At 140mph you could at least make the case that you’d easily blend with commercial jet traffic. Flying a tricycle gear aircraft down the runway with the wheels touching is poor airmanship. Period. Any fool with enough runway can hold an airplane in a flat attitude until the wheels settle on. Calling that a landing is using the loosest definition of the term. I’m not saying I’ve never done it, but I try to aim for standards far above my lousiest performances, not try and sell them as alternative forms of skilled airmanship. I missed the “give everyone a trophy regardless of performance” mandates by a few years...Thankfully.

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The point is not that you can do a repeatable good landing the same way every time.   Can you do a fast landing, can you do a really slow landing.   Pretty sure with my spark plug incident, I flew the tightest pattern I have ever flown at one of the minimum speeds I have flown.  It was the trick that needed to be pulled from the bag at the time.  Could have very well been a statistic.

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