Avionics and AP upgrade for original 68 M20F

[gsxrpilot]

19 minutes ago, jazztheglass said:

It actually looks pretty clear to me.  Before we talk you into spending a quarter million dollars on a new plane with a cutting edge (for a year or so panel), I would consider an ADSB in/out transponder 3-7K; a 430 WAAS (used) or similar GPS  7-8 k, engine monitor 5k and autopilot such as trutrak (5-8k).  You could also add a G5 or two or an Aspen E5 (in January) and have a plane I wouldn't be afraid to fly in any conditions

You're at $25K and haven't installed it yet. 

[jazztheglass]

4 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

You're at $25K and haven't installed it yet. 

typo-  It looks pretty clean to me, the decision is far from clear.

Yes 25k for equipment- its an expensive experience owning planes.  My point is that from what I know about that model and the little I can glean from that picture,  it looks to me to be worth it to improve the panel rather than buy one with a $100,000 glass panel.  Often when I am considering upgrades to the planes of any kind I say to myself "will this make it safer?"  A new headliner and carpet won't and it will set you back thousands.  On this panel an IFR capable WAAS GPS would be an immediate must for me.  Next the ADS-B, which will be required and will add traffic and weather.  That improves safety.  The engine monitor replaces many old steam gauges and will improve dispatch reliability and arguably allow you to pick up engine problems earlier, and the autopilot can decrease workload in IFR flight.  If labor is another 10k, that 35K investment will increase the value of the plane more that 25% of what he spends imo.  I'd think you would recoup 50-60% when selling the plane if you do sell it in the future.

[gsxrpilot]

1 minute ago, jazztheglass said:

typo-  It looks pretty clean to me, the decision is far from clear.

Yes 25k for equipment- its an expensive experience owning planes.  My point is that from what I know about that model and the little I can glean from that picture,  it looks to me to be worth it to improve the panel rather than buy one with a $100,000 glass panel.  Often when I am considering upgrades to the planes of any kind I say to myself "will this make it safer?"  A new headliner and carpet won't and it will set you back thousands.  On this panel an IFR capable WAAS GPS would be an immediate must for me.  Next the ADS-B, which will be required and will add traffic and weather.  That improves safety.  The engine monitor replaces many old steam gauges and will improve dispatch reliability and arguably allow you to pick up engine problems earlier, and the autopilot can decrease workload in IFR flight.  If labor is another 10k, that 35K investment will increase the value of the plane more that 25% of what he spends imo.  I'd think you would recoup 50-60% when selling the plane if you do sell it in the future.

Yep, I believe we're thinking the same way. When people ask me about the upgrading of my plane, I say I've started with what's right in front of me in the left seat and work my way out... paint and interior will be the very last thing. 

I agree there's no need for a glass panel... but he does need an autopilot, engine monitor, WAAS GPS. I just think that if he sold this F for say $50K (it might not bring that with an inoperable Brittain). and put the $35K with it, he's within striking distance of a J that would have all that stuff already.

[MIm20c]

8 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Yep, I believe we're thinking the same way. When people ask me about the upgrading of my plane, I say I've started with what's right in front of me in the left seat and work my way out... paint and interior will be the very last thing. 

I agree there's no need for a glass panel... but he does need an autopilot, engine monitor, WAAS GPS. I just think that if he sold this F for say $50K (it might not bring that with an inoperable Brittain). and put the $35K with it, he's within striking distance of a J that would have all that stuff already.

Good advice...however, I find shopping for planes is similar to homes. To find a nice panel in a cheap aircraft (under 100k) is almost impossible. Same goes for shopping for a home where many kitchens are small, outdated, and inefficient. I can spend 50-100k updating mine or another 500k to get in a class of home that comes standard with one. 

 

Disclaimer - I’m just getting started with the slow money draining process of overhauling our first floor including a new mud room and kitchen. 

[LANCECASPER]

4 hours ago, jazztheglass said:

Before we talk you into spending a quarter million dollars on a new plane with a cutting edge . . .

Where do you find a new certified airplane for $250,000?

[LANCECASPER]

19 hours ago, Dan Bohn said:

This is an old photo of my panel - not intended to be a close up of the panel.  But it's all I have right now.  My M20F is in the shop for annual inspection, so I can't get a better panel shot.  Dual nav coms.  Antique GPS that I never use in the center stack.  Strike finder (the green screen in lower center of panel).  Fuel monitoring system below the panel on the lower right.  Engine and oil temp monitor is the round gauge on the lower right.  It is IFR capable.  The original Britain autopilot, to the left of the tach, is inop.

I could clean up the cockpit and probably lose some weight by upgrading.  But I am beginning to rethink my strategy, based on advice.  I think I may want to upgrade planes.  I was originally just looking for an autopilot to help with wing leveling to handle some of the workload.  But it all starts to snowball.      

Someone who owned this airplane in the 90's showed a lot of love toward it. My guess is that they spent between $35,000 and $40,000 on King radios (2 nav coms, adf, dme, audio panel, transponder) a wx-900 stormscope, shadin fuel totalizer, early EI engine analyzer and an Apollo flybuddy gps. I can't tell for sure which Accuflite autopilot you had, but some people still work on these. Until you decide what you want to do long term you might ask some experts on here who is good with those autopilots. It may take a relatively small amount to at least get your autopilot working. 

[INA201]

something like this may be a better option.  Also, you could post that you are looking.  Mooneys are a rare commodity nowadays.  I chose the spend a ton option on doing my own upgrades which is very time and money consuming but very rewarding.

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/24580301/1968-mooney-m20c-ranger

[jazztheglass]

2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Where do you find a new certified airplane for $250,000?

I guess I meant new to him.  Good point

[Dan Bohn]

15 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Someone who owned this airplane in the 90's showed a lot of love toward it. My guess is that they spent between $35,000 and $40,000 on King radios (2 nav coms, adf, dme, audio panel, transponder) a wx-900 stormscope, shadin fuel totalizer, early EI engine analyzer and an Apollo flybuddy gps. I can't tell for sure which Accuflite autopilot you had, but some people still work on these. Until you decide what you want to do long term you might ask some experts on here who is good with those autopilots. It may take a relatively small amount to at least get your autopilot working. 

Thanks and you are right.  This was a great cockpit 20 years ago.  The autopilot is the original Britain system.  I did research a few years back and discovered the only place that works on this antique system is in Oklahoma, if memory serves me.  It was not expensive, at the time, to get it working - they quoted me a worst-case scenario of around $2800.  But then, I still have a very old "mechanical" system capable of wing leveling.  A fellow pilot advised me that if I was going to spend the money, better to put that into modernizing the autopilot.  So, here I am.  

[MICKEY]

I am relatively new to owning a Mooney and bough my 67 M20F last year.  That said, I have put a few upgrades into the aircraft.  There has been some great advice from people here on this Mooneyspace.  @Marauder Has helped me make some decisions as well, though I have decided to go a different route than him, his set up is great, and I plan for my set up to be solid as well. 

Attached are a few pictures.  The first is when I purchased my aircraft last year. L->R, Standard 6-pack, STEC 60-2 autopilot, Garmin 496, GNS 430W, JPI 830, and KT-76 transponder. My Vaccum system was decent but I wanted some safety measures. So I upgraded the ADS-b in/out adding the GTX 345 and upgrading the 496 to an Aera 660.  This upgrade alone was about 7k installed.  Traffic in and out (gtx 345), back up ADHRS (gtx 345), terrain warning (Aera 660) and back up/legal charts (Aera 660).  I flew this for a few months and then the vacuum system started to go.

So... my gyros started to go and I new I figured an EFIS would be helpful and wished it to be integrated into my current stack.  At this time the old aspen was cheap (6-8k+ install) and the new aspen was coming out (10k+install) and there was the E5 (6.5k+install).  The dual Garmin G5's were available (5.5k+install).  The Dynon system was a thought but seemed too far in the future, without knowing it would be approved for the Mooney.  Most importantly I wanted SAFETY.   So integration of the EFIS and Autopilot were the most important for me.   So I looked more into the system lines, 1.  Dual G5's and GFC 500 ~ ($5.5k + $8k + install), 2. Aspen Pro and STEC 3100  ~ ($10k + $12k + install), or 3. Dynon HDX Touch with autopilot (unsure of cost but suspect 18-25k + install).  

Then I was thinking that we pilots are can screw up and safety is paramount.  So integrative EFIS and Autopilot and ability to grow into those systems was the most important to me so.... The Garmin system is totally integrative, redundant and made to be integrated.  The Aspen/STEC systems are independent systems and well integrated but expensive and nothing was STC'd or approved at that time, nor was the new Aspen shipping or STEC 3100 approved.  The Dynon system IMO is the most integrative but the shipping/approval timeline unknown, and suspect the install would cost more. 

So... for an immediate/6month fix I came to the conclusion that my preference order was 1st Garmin, 2nd Aspen/STEC, then 3rd Dynon as it was on the distant horizon.  And if time was no factor Garmin and Dynon would be neck and neck but would need pricing for Dynon.    I also had a lot of Garmin electronics installed at this time with Aera 660, GNS 430W, and GTX 345. 

So...This is what I went with (Garmin) knowing that I could do two things. 1. Immediately have an solid certified EFIS with certified back up that integrates seamlessly with my current avionics. 2. Upgrade my Autopilot to the GFC 500 with a fully integrated A/P system, have Envelope protection, vertical controls, and TO/GA.  So for 15k+ install, probably 25k total, I would have a State of the Art aircraft panel and control in a 50+ yearold airplane.  And I could upgrade the navigator and audio panel and there would be NO integration problems.

If I wanted the same thing with the Aspen/STEC 3100, it would cost the same or more. probably $25-30k in my estimation. AND it would take atleast 6-12 months longer to be approved and installed.  Currently @marauder has a great example and he may upgrade to this Aspen/STEC update update.    Both are great systems.

So what does this all mean to you.  

 1. Know your mission (hard IMC vs day vmc).

2. Pick your budget. 

3. Set your upgrade priorities (system integration, redundancy, etc)

4. Pick your timeline ( 1-2 months or 12 mos +).

5. Pick a system (STEC/Aspen vs Dynon vs Garmin).  

6. Enjoy.

If you want the "If I was you..."question answered... I would say Any of the 3  works, but the cost of a new GFC 500 $15k will be much cheaper than a new STEC 3100 install $20-$25k, and the Dynon is not yet determined. But if you can wait.... it might just be the best option for the best price.  

Good luck and have fun!

[Dan Bohn]

Thanks, Mickey.  Very helpful.  Options with price estimates (installed).  And PICTURES!  :-)  Perfect.

[bill98]

On 9/7/2018 at 9:33 PM, INA201 said:

something like this may be a better option.  Also, you could post that you are looking.  Mooneys are a rare commodity nowadays.  I chose the spend a ton option on doing my own upgrades which is very time and money consuming but very rewarding.

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/24580301/1968-mooney-m20c-ranger

My 65E was under 70k, 300 hours on the engine, Aspen, JPI830, Brittain AP (no altitude hold though) and Garmin 430W. 201 Window too.

 

I would highly recommend using All American Aircraft to help you find one.