Avionics and AP upgrade for original 68 M20F

[Dan Bohn]

I have a basic steam gauge layout in my 1968 M20F - and the original Brittain autopilot is inop.  I started Instrument training several years ago when I purchased the plane, but gave up.  I would like to restart training since I'm not using the full capabilities of the aircraft, but want autopilot to help with the workload.  I have looked at the STEC models, but then the upgrade of autopilot explodes into necessary avionics upgrades. 

So, here's my question.  Can someone give me suggestions on a COMPLETE panel upgrade that would include a nice autopilot that can fly an instrument approach?  I am interested in the most cost effective way to go.  I am mostly interested in the autopilot capabilities, but based on what I've read, I must upgrade my steam gauges (I don't have GPS).  I have read that Dynon is nearing an STC.  I like Garmin, but the prices are prohibitive.  I'm looking for suggestions/advice on a nice, INTEGRATED cockpit replacement - at a reasonable price.  Manufacturer and model numbers would be helpful.  If you have basic ideas as to installed price, I'd appreciate that, as well.  I can see the prices for individual components in Trade a Plane, but I don't have any experience in glass cockpits or autopilots. 

Bewildered in Ohio. 

[NJMac]

Search out my thread from retro to basic if you'd like to see what 50 am use got me. Another 7 and I'll have the True-Track autopilot integrated as soon as its granted STC. If I saw the future 12 months ago, I totally would have waited for the Dynon certification personally.

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[Dan Bohn]

19 minutes ago, NJMac said:

Search out my thread from retro to basic if you'd like to see what 50 am use got me. Another 7 and I'll have the True-Track autopilot integrated as soon as its granted STC. If I saw the future 12 months ago, I totally would have waited for the Dynon certification personally.

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Thanks for your reply.  I saw the quote for the Garmin panel upgrade, but doesn't include the autopilot function, which is my priority.  I even considered repairing the old Brittain unit - but I feel like I'd just be throwing the money away on old technology. I'd upgrade the com system with GPS, but looking for the autopilot integration.  Good string though, and thanks for the installed pricing info.   

[1964-M20E]

Dan

My suggestions is to learn and get you IR with your existing equipment.  Yes it will be harder but at the end of the day you will get a very good training and handling the plane.  While you are getting the IR plan you new panel and gather up the $ to make it happen.  Some of the lower cost AP alternatives maybe available then once you are done.

Also work out with your instructor and your safety pilot to be your AP at certain times.  Learning to deal with all the issues and control the plane without an AP is very valuable.  Even if you had a functioning AP you should use it very sparingly while getting your IR. JMHO

[N201MKTurbo]

I would suggest doing your instrument training without an autopilot. After all you are the last line of redundancy. You are the backup system. Come he’ll or high water, you have to be able to fly the airplane. 

I have known a few pilots that would be in an emergency situation if their autopilot failed while IMC.

I passed my multi ATP in a plane with no autopilot.

That being said, they are sure nice to have.

[Dan Bohn]

I understand the recommendations to get an instrument rating without an autopilot.  Got it.  My intention to install an autopilot is NOT to make my instrument training easier.  My understanding is that instructors will demand I fly without one, simulating an autopilot failure, because we all know anything mechanical will eventually fail.  The reason I want the autopilot is so that when I have earned an Instrument Rating, that my plane is easier to operate and safer.  AND I'd like to train in the configuration that I ultimately plan to have for my aircraft.  I'd prefer to train in the aircraft I will fly into IMC.  Should I be able to fly in IMC without an autopilot?  Absolutely.  But I want to train in what I intend to have.  I intend to have a more modern, safer aircraft and train in it.  I appreciate the well intended advice, and agree, but it's not helpful.   

[LANCECASPER]

I'll take the opposite side. Getting good instruction during your instrument training on how to use your autopilot is invaluable. Single pilot IFR in some countries isn't even allowed without a working autopilot. Learn to fly on instruments without relying on your autopilot, but it's a tool that's only as good as the training you've received on it. The idea that real pilots don't use an autopilot is archaic. You should fly with a safety pilot and practice hand flying under the hood to keep sharp, but a good autopilot in IFR is just one more way to stay ahead of the airplane. 

[Dan Bohn]

6 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

I'll take the opposite side. Getting good instruction during your instrument training on how to use your autopilot is invaluable. Single pilot IFR in some countries isn't even allowed without a working autopilot. Learn to fly on instruments without relying on your autopilot, but it's a tool that's only as good as the training you've received on it. The idea that real pilots don't use an autopilot is archaic. You should fly with a safety pilot and practice hand flying under the hood to keep sharp, but a good autopilot in IFR is just one more way to stay ahead of the airplane. 

Lancecasper, you nailed it.  I am not trying to "cheat" to get an Instrument Rating with an autopilot.  As I responded to another comment, instructors will require me to demonstrate the ability to fly in IMC in a simulated autopilot failure,.  I prefer to train in the configuration I will fly. 

I wasn't asking for advice in getting an Instrument Rating, though I appreciate the comments.  I was asking for advice on an autopilot system and the required avionics to drive it.  Thanks.

[LANCECASPER]

I don't think that the Garmin GFC500 and the G5's would have happened without the other autopilots and other avionics that are on the horizon. However, Garmin has a much greater ability to get things through the system with their resources.

Even though the only pieces of Garmin equipment I have in my airplane are a GTX345 transponder and an Aera 660, if I was starting over without an autopilot or a GPS I'd probably bite the bullet and build the panel around the GFC500. The other things look promising but it's hard to say how it will all play out. I'd bet on Garmin to be there for the long run.

[Marauder]

Lancecasper, you nailed it.  I am not trying to "cheat" to get an Instrument Rating with an autopilot.  As I responded to another comment, instructors will require me to demonstrate the ability to fly in IMC in a simulated autopilot failure,.  I prefer to train in the configuration I will fly. 
I wasn't asking for advice in getting an Instrument Rating, though I appreciate the comments.  I was asking for advice on an autopilot system and the required avionics to drive it.  Thanks.

Dan - having spent a fair amount of time and money on upgrading an F, my first thought is just having you confirm that this IS the plane you plan on keeping for a while. Investing in any upgrade of a vintage Mooney, will be loser proposition unless you plan on getting some utility out of the plane. You’ll never get the money back out. All that said;

If I knew the plane was a keeper I would map out what you want your final state to look like. If you are planning on going full glass, buying an STEC 30 probably doesn’t make sense. Buying a TruTrak, Dynon, STEC 3100 or Garmin AP, has the higher potential of being found in an integrated system. If I couldn’t swing the entire upgrade now, I would look at a building block approach. A G5 with the GFC 500 would be the cheapest “integrated” system. And if you go later with a Garmin G500 TXi, the G5 can serve as the backup to the G500.

Same goes for a standalone STEC 3100 which can be integrated to an Aspen system.

If you want to, post your panel configuration here, we can help you spend your money. Or you can PM people like me and we can help you with a more personal touch of money spending.

I’m Marauder and I am a member of AA (Avionics Anonymous)

[MIm20c]

The Dynon system with a waas approach navigator could probably be built for 30 ish in parts. 

The Garmin 7 inch txi, g5 backup, AP, navigator, and used 330es will be the same price but lacking an engine monitor, SV, and second com. 

The Garmin dual G5, AP, navigator, and used 330es will be in the low 20’s for parts. Same price for the aspen E5 and trutrak unit.

On the low end a 400w added to your panel with a trutrak AP and 330es can be had for under 10k in parts and will have TONS of capability.

 

[Dan Bohn]

5 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

The Dynon system with a waas approach navigator could probably be built for 30 ish in parts. 

The Garmin 7 inch txi, g5 backup, AP, navigator, and used 330es will be the same price but lacking an engine monitor, SV, and second com. 

The Garmin dual G5, AP, navigator, and used 330es will be in the low 20’s for parts. Same price for the aspen E5 and trutrak unit.

On the low end a 400w added to your panel with a trutrak AP and 330es can be had for under 10k in parts and will have TONS of capability.

 

Thanks.  Very helpful.  I will do research on these combinations and see if one works for me.  BTW, I have a Rayjay aftermarket turbo, so I already have an engine monitoring system.  It's a must.  I wouldn't absolutely need that capability included in a system, but would be nice to have it all in one.  I had hoped to keep it around $30k or under.  

[MIm20c]

I also have a Rayjay and really enjoy using it.  Keep in mind the above prices are parts only. Labor could easily add 6-15k depending on how extensive it is. 

[Dan Bohn]

1 hour ago, MIm20c said:

I also have a Rayjay and really enjoy using it.  Keep in mind the above prices are parts only. Labor could easily add 6-15k depending on how extensive it is. 

Thanks.  I imagine the avionics shop will also need to remove some of the old Brittain system, as well.  Yikes.  I can see how avionics can end up costing more than the airplane is worth.  It's a great airplane - very efficient.  I am weighing the difference between upgrading or replacing it with a more capable aircraft.  I know what I have (happy with it) and it's always a crap shoot buying a used airplane.  

[NJMac]

You mentioned Ohio. I used Josh at Achievement Aviation at Lakefield airport in St Mary's Ohio for a lot of my work. He's an Avidyne, Aspen, Trutrac dealer. I realy enjoyed working with him and his prices were quite reasonable. (260)525-2975
You wouldn't happen to be at KSCA would you? There's an F with a rayjay there.

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[Dan Bohn]

1 minute ago, NJMac said:

You mentioned Ohio. I used Josh at Achievement Aviation at Lakefield airport in St Mary's Ohio for a lot of my work. He's an Avidyne, Aspen, Trutrac dealer. I realy enjoyed working with him and his prices were quite reasonable. (260)525-2975
You wouldn't happen to be at KSCA would you? There's an F with a rayjay there.

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Thanks for the referral.  No, I am based in Fairfield County at KLHQ.  

[INA201]

I would post a pic of your panel first. Usually that gets a lot of ideas flowing. In the meantime I upgraded my panel around using the Century 2b(no alt hold) and a G5HSI with GPSS to run it. I’m not sure if the Britain integrates with GPSS or not but I bet it does.  My short term plan was to rebuild the 2b three years ago. We just pulled all the components out and sent it to https://www.bevanrabell.com/ and had everything gone through. I wanna say it was around $1500 not counting labor on the pull out reinstall end but knocked out the cost of diagnosing, trial and error and other junk.  I’ve been very pleased as it will follow whatever the GPS tells it too and fairly precisely.  I did the panel upgrade below right before finishing up my instrument training and have been very pleased.  The 650 at this point is overkill but the rest works nicely.  I’m saving money now and when the 2b finally dies which will probably be a while I’ll put in a GFC500+second G5 or equivalent for the certified for approaches aspect.

 

[jazztheglass]

As someone who has bought a lot of crazy expensive avionics in the past year (I am fortunate to have his and her planes with my wife) I would like to comment.  First the IFR training is a separate issue than the panel upgrade.  You absolutely should get your instrument rating.  It double or triples the days you can travel in my opinion.  Plus as one of the most difficult checkrides it is a challenge and it should be.  I did mine in my Mooney M20C with only the wing leveler.  Even then the examiner had me disable it on two of the apporaches.  The comments are valid, you should be able to hand fly approaches flawlessly, but it the future if you are going to partially rely on your autopilot you need to learn to be a zen master at setting it up.

My upgrades have been Cessna 340- garmin 345 transponder, WAAS upgrade to 430 (You need to have at least one reliable WAAS GPS in my opinion, and Garmin sets the bar pretty high on GPS), G5 on right side of panel (not legal for a backup, but fine for my wife to fly when I need a break) Aspen PFD and STEC sutopilot (the latter two not yet installed).  One thing to learn from this is there is a painful delay in the release of these products.  The Aspen E5 for example that seems like the cat's meow to me and is reportedly available, in reality will be months before it ships and if you order now you are like number 401 in line (at least thats what the guys at Aspen told me when I called them on the phone).  So if you want it right now, plan on a year from now.  Seriously.  Your avionics shop is backed up too.  Guaranteed.  I had to buy the old Aspen for 8k and went ahead and paid the 2 k for the plug and play replacement for the new Pro Max 1000 (they threw in AOA and ADSB) when it becomes available (again the hope is this will happen in calendar year 2019).

For my Mooney I put in a G5 (because the AI crapped out after 4000 hours) the Garmin 345 and now I am going to put the tru trak autopilot the minute it gets realeased and is available (I'm hoping for a 2018 on this one).  The reason?  Price.  For 5k you get a basic autopilot that is self contained (will talk to your Garmin 430W or above) and if you don't have a GPS add $150 for an add on one.  Honestly I don't need anything too fancy in my Mooney.  I dont need it to communicate with my Garmin G5 (although it will with an Aspen I am told).  I don't need electric trim or a yaw damper.  I need a basic, safe, wing leveling, envelope protecting autopilot and hope as an instrument trained and rated pilot I won't ever need the latter two features.

Let us know what you decide.  You are in a neighboring state.  If you ever come to KLOU for the $100 hamburger at the best fly in restaurant in the world (Les Relais) look me up- I will be glad to join you

 

Jeff Allen

Louisville, Ky

[gsxrpilot]

To echo what @Marauder said, if you're even entertaining the idea of selling the plane and getting one with closer to the avionics stack you want... I'd be hesitant to spend money to upgrade what you have. Of course, if you're set on an F with a RayJay, the pool will be very small and you might be stuck upgrading what you have. But if you'd be happy to fly a J or a K with a factory turbo... then think about replacing the airplane to get the panel you want.

See what your "all original" F is worth, add $50K to that, and see what you could buy.

At the end of the day it's unlikely you get in and out of an avionics shop for less than $50K. There are cheaper ways to do it. I took almost a year to collect all the pieces for my new panel, buying one piece at a time, used from Barnstormers, or on BlackFriday sales, Oshkosh specials, etc. Once I had it all together, then I had to find a shop who would even allow me to bring in the parts and they do the work. Most shops want to sell you the parts as well. The end result for me is a great panel at about 50% of retail cost. But that did NOT include an autopilot. I started with a good autopilot as I knew installing an autopilot would probably double the cost of the whole job.

My following of the vintage Mooney market over the last five years or so shows me that most people get 25 cents back for every dollar spent on upgrades. So it's MUCH cheaper to buy the airplane that someone else has upgraded. Again as @Marauder says, the only way to mitigate that is to keep the plane forever. I used to fly an M20C and before spending on a panel upgrade, I decided to step up to my final airplane, a 252. Then I was willing to spend the money as I intend to keep this plane until I can no longer pass a medical. Otherwise, sell it and go buy the plane that's closer to what you want.

Finally +1000 on the instrument rating. An IR with a Mooney is a powerful, fun, and very capable, combination. 

[MIm20c]

Two things I want to add to the above post. Dealers are making 20%+ on new equipment sales and good shops are very busy now (vs a few years ago).  It might be very hard to find a dealer willing to combine used avionics. 

For upgrading on a CB style tight budget utilize the Garmin 400 size gns and 330 tray. With some patience and perseverance you could probably get a gns 400 non waas, 330 non es, and trutrak for just over 10k installed. If all the wiring is done properly you can easily and inexpensively upgrade boxes later on.

[Dan Bohn]

On 9/6/2018 at 1:00 AM, jazztheglass said:

As someone who has bought a lot of crazy expensive avionics in the past year (I am fortunate to have his and her planes with my wife) I would like to comment.  First the IFR training is a separate issue than the panel upgrade.  You absolutely should get your instrument rating.  It double or triples the days you can travel in my opinion.  Plus as one of the most difficult checkrides it is a challenge and it should be.  I did mine in my Mooney M20C with only the wing leveler.  Even then the examiner had me disable it on two of the apporaches.  The comments are valid, you should be able to hand fly approaches flawlessly, but it the future if you are going to partially rely on your autopilot you need to learn to be a zen master at setting it up.

My upgrades have been Cessna 340- garmin 345 transponder, WAAS upgrade to 430 (You need to have at least one reliable WAAS GPS in my opinion, and Garmin sets the bar pretty high on GPS), G5 on right side of panel (not legal for a backup, but fine for my wife to fly when I need a break) Aspen PFD and STEC sutopilot (the latter two not yet installed).  One thing to learn from this is there is a painful delay in the release of these products.  The Aspen E5 for example that seems like the cat's meow to me and is reportedly available, in reality will be months before it ships and if you order now you are like number 401 in line (at least thats what the guys at Aspen told me when I called them on the phone).  So if you want it right now, plan on a year from now.  Seriously.  Your avionics shop is backed up too.  Guaranteed.  I had to buy the old Aspen for 8k and went ahead and paid the 2 k for the plug and play replacement for the new Pro Max 1000 (they threw in AOA and ADSB) when it becomes available (again the hope is this will happen in calendar year 2019).

For my Mooney I put in a G5 (because the AI crapped out after 4000 hours) the Garmin 345 and now I am going to put the tru trak autopilot the minute it gets realeased and is available (I'm hoping for a 2018 on this one).  The reason?  Price.  For 5k you get a basic autopilot that is self contained (will talk to your Garmin 430W or above) and if you don't have a GPS add $150 for an add on one.  Honestly I don't need anything too fancy in my Mooney.  I dont need it to communicate with my Garmin G5 (although it will with an Aspen I am told).  I don't need electric trim or a yaw damper.  I need a basic, safe, wing leveling, envelope protecting autopilot and hope as an instrument trained and rated pilot I won't ever need the latter two features.

Let us know what you decide.  You are in a neighboring state.  If you ever come to KLOU for the $100 hamburger at the best fly in restaurant in the world (Les Relais) look me up- I will be glad to join you

 

Jeff Allen

Louisville, Ky

Thanks.  I really appreciate your advice.

[Dan Bohn]

This is an old photo of my panel - not intended to be a close up of the panel.  But it's all I have right now.  My M20F is in the shop for annual inspection, so I can't get a better panel shot.  Dual nav coms.  Antique GPS that I never use in the center stack.  Strike finder (the green screen in lower center of panel).  Fuel monitoring system below the panel on the lower right.  Engine and oil temp monitor is the round gauge on the lower right.  It is IFR capable.  The original Britain autopilot, to the left of the tach, is inop.

I could clean up the cockpit and probably lose some weight by upgrading.  But I am beginning to rethink my strategy, based on advice.  I think I may want to upgrade planes.  I was originally just looking for an autopilot to help with wing leveling to handle some of the workload.  But it all starts to snowball.      

[gsxrpilot]

9 hours ago, Dan Bohn said:

But it all starts to snowball.      

Oh... you have no idea!

[jazztheglass]

14 hours ago, Dan Bohn said:

This is an old photo of my panel - not intended to be a close up of the panel.  But it's all I have right now.  My M20F is in the shop for annual inspection, so I can't get a better panel shot.  Dual nav coms.  Antique GPS that I never use in the center stack.  Strike finder (the green screen in lower center of panel).  Fuel monitoring system below the panel on the lower right.  Engine and oil temp monitor is the round gauge on the lower right.  It is IFR capable.  The original Britain autopilot, to the left of the tach, is inop.

I could clean up the cockpit and probably lose some weight by upgrading.  But I am beginning to rethink my strategy, based on advice.  I think I may want to upgrade planes.  I was originally just looking for an autopilot to help with wing leveling to handle some of the workload.  But it all starts to snowball.      

It actually looks pretty clear to me.  Before we talk you into spending a quarter million dollars on a new plane with a cutting edge (for a year or so panel), I would consider an ADSB in/out transponder 3-7K; a 430 WAAS (used) or similar GPS  7-8 k, engine monitor 5k and autopilot such as trutrak (5-8k).  You could also add a G5 or two or an Aspen E5 (in January) and have a plane I wouldn't be afraid to fly in any conditions

[carusoam]

Chicken and egg situation...

hard to select the right equipment without having the experience.

Pick a mentor, and follow his advice...

More specifically... pick an instrument panel mentor and follow his IP advice.  

It helps to have a budget in mind...

It helps to be able to acquire used equipment over time...

it helps to decide on a equipment provider... Garmin, Avidyne, BK, or Aspen..... etc..

It helps to decide which bits and pieces you want today, what ones you can wait for...

Don’t buy anything that isn’t done yet... lots of new equipment coming, but not quite certified yet...  

Certification schedules are a complete unknown.  Too many players involved including a govenrnment entity...

prioritize...

mine would be...

1) a WAAS box... VOR, ILS, GPS approaches...

2) HSI, better with a digital display.... with AHRS data and wind data displayed...

3) traffic and weather... ADSB to Best avoid thunderstorms and icing....

4) 2020 capable

5) lots of expensive APs coming to the market.  Really good to have single pilot IFR... Lots of old ones still working really well.

 

things to look into... lots of discussion around here...

• G500txi
• Aspen
• lynx
• Dynon
• Avidyne
• AOAi
• JPI, EI, insight...

Watching folks go through the effort is a great learning experience... from selecting a used box, to getting it installed, to learning how to use it...

Watch Marauder in action... he even posted a few videos of his aspen expertise...

current equipment is mikes ahead of the old analog stuff...

Best regards,

-a-