IFR Flight Profile

[bob865]

Hey everyone.  I bought my mooney M20E about a year ago now.  My main reason for buying her was to have a good solid IFR platform.  However she was a big departure from what I was used to (cessnas and cherokees), so I told myself I needed to fly her a while and get confident and competent in normal operations before I jumped into instrument training.  That time has finally come and I'm going to start my training soon. 

What I'm hoping to get some help with is what is your normal IFR flight profile look like? 

i.e.

climb 26/2600

cruise 22/2400

Hold ??/????

Approach ??/???? - Target ???mph before ???

Gear down at ???

Flaps down at ???

That is what I'm thinking anyway.  You guys correct me if I'm way off.  Just looking for help/guidance in handling the plane under the hood/in the clouds to get a starting place.

[Hank]

Bob--

This is how I do it in my C:

climb--WOT/2700  [there's no need to climb at reduced power, it takes longer, burns more fuel and reduces engine cooling due to slower air flow]

cruise--varies by altitude for 65-70% power

Hold--if 4000 msl or below, 23/2300 then reduce throttle to a speed that I am comfortable orbiting for [this will generally be ~140 mphi; for a short holding legs, this is too fast for me]

Approach--if 4000 msl or below, 23/2300 then reduce throttle to - Target 105 mph before FAF / glideslope intercept / lowering gear

Gear down at FAF or 1½ dots above glideslope

Flaps down between IAF and FAF, when speed slows to white arc.

Note that your power settings and speeds will be slightly different, since your fuel injected engine makes more power than my carbureted one.

Over time, I've simplified my operations by using mostly three power settings from my Owners Manual, which comes in handy with periodic level offs and step descents in IMC:

• low level [~4000 msl]:  23/2300
• mid level [~4000-7000]:  22/2400
• high level [>7500 or so]:  WOT-/2500

You can use WOT instead of "WOT-" since you don't have a throttle plate to tilt inside your carb for better fuel atomization by inducing turbulence. See, that's a benefit to make up for your more complex hot starts. Soon a dozen people will add their own foolproof hot start procedure that work every time, and the only common element between them will be turning the key . . .    But we reserve the right to squabble amongst ourselves about such minor things.

Happy flying!

P.S.--what does your CFII recommend for power settings? Have you discussed this with a Mooney-specific CFII? just things to think about.

[1964-M20E]

I shoot for being at my gear speed by the time I'm ready to intercept the localizer, VOR radial or GPS course.  On the procedures there is an altitude that ATC will usually get you down to before you reach the IAF or FAF.

for me

climb WOT, 2700

cruise WOT, 2550 and LOP above 4000msl

decent WOT, 2550, nose it over and trim for faster decent speed, unit the MP starts going above 23" to 24" then I check it there; this will vary due to ATC decent requests i.e. if I'm close and have to descend faster

about 5 miles from the IAF or FAF throttle back to about 18" and adjust to slow down to gear speed 120IAS

once established on the final approach throttle as necessary to maintain 100IAS, flap speed, and follow the glide path or step downs.

At FAF or so gear down fly the needles until you can see the runway add flaps and land, some will add some flaps at the FAF which is acceptable

Go out with and IR pilot or by yourself at a non towered airport and fly the approaches it has in VMC and with your eyes looking out the windows.  This will let you get a good feel for where you are with respect to the instruments, the procedures and what the plane is doing.  Learn the plane first then get under the hood.  At this point you are learning to fly the instruments and you already instinctively know what you need to do for the plane.  IMHO trying to do both while under the hood just makes it more challenging not impossible though.

 

[bob865]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Have you discussed this with a Mooney-specific CFII?

Unfortunately there is no such thing in my area.  I fly with the most experienced mooney instructor I could find and at this point, I now have more mooney hours than he.  This is why I'm reaching out to the community to see what knowledge the collective can offer me.   We did a BFR last week and his normal arrow power settings barely had an effect my fast and slippery mooney!! 

22 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

Go out with and IR pilot or by yourself at a non towered airport and fly the approaches it has in VMC and with your eyes looking out the windows.

This is good advice.  This was my plan to try to build a profile myself, but I realized why should I figured it out myself wehn the collective knowledge of mooneyspace can save me hours of trial and error.

What speed indicated do you guys normally fly your holds?  60% Cruise for me is typically about 145 mph IAS.

[Marauder]

Hey everyone.  I bought my mooney M20E about a year ago now.  My main reason for buying her was to have a good solid IFR platform.  However she was a big departure from what I was used to (cessnas and cherokees), so I told myself I needed to fly her a while and get confident and competent in normal operations before I jumped into instrument training.  That time has finally come and I'm going to start my training soon. 
What I'm hoping to get some help with is what is your normal IFR flight profile look like? 
i.e.
climb 26/2600
cruise 22/2400
Hold ??/????
Approach ??/???? - Target ???mph before ???
Gear down at ???
Flaps down at ???
That is what I'm thinking anyway.  You guys correct me if I'm way off.  Just looking for help/guidance in handling the plane under the hood/in the clouds to get a starting place.

Make yourself one of these and fill it in. Will help document the correct settings. Anytime I do an IPC with a new CFI, I pull it out and stick on the panel in front of them. Way too many CFIs who are not familiar with older Mooneys don’t know the power gymnastics that are required.




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[DXB]

This is what I ultimately settled on during IR training in  my C model - same airframe as you but I'm not sure how much difference the extra 20 horses in the E makes.  I try to slow to gear speed within 0.5mi of the final fix.  After GUMPS, roughly 15"/2300rpm takes you down the glideslope nicely at around 105mph with minimal trim change.  I dump in flaps only once the runway is in sight - one less thing to deal with if going missed.   The J-bar retract on the missed can be a bit tricky since speed will be on the high end.  Learning a well coordinated "dip" addressed that issue.

[carusoam]

With all the great insight from the authors above....

Also Consider taking the PPP classes that include 1-on-1 with a Mooney specific CFII in your plane performing IFR procedures to standards or to your Max.

The discussions of what procedures were done by various people at the end of of the day is incredibly interesting and motivating.

Things like partial panel radar approaches... among the usual ILS, VOR, GPS kind of stuff.... or like me... VFR patterns... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

BTW - my numbers are in knots.


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[Hank]

Your year also matters, as flap and gear speeds changed over time. Mine are 125 mph for flaps and 120 for gear, so i fly the approach with Takeoff Flaps and use gear to initiate descent. 

[Oldguy]

10 minutes ago, carusoam said:

With all the great insight from the authors above....

Also Consider taking the PPP classes that include 1-on-1 with a Mooney specific CFII in your plane performing IFR procedures to standards or to your Max.

The discussions of what procedures were done by various people at the end of of the day is incredibly interesting and motivating.

Things like partial panel radar approaches... among the usual ILS, VOR, GPS kind of stuff.... of like me... VFR patterns... 

Best regards,

-a-

To tag onto what Anthony wrote, there is a PPP in Owensboro, KY the end of next month (Sept. 28-30). About 2 hours from KGMU. You can find the registration form in a copy of the MAPA Log or on their web site at www.mapasafety.com. Highly recommended for figuring out the Mooney specifics on configurations in different situations.

[Lance Keve]

A starting point.  Don't remember how I got this document.  I believe it is an older MAPA PPP document.

[jaylw314]

I'd say that for the approach settings (descent, descent with gear down and level gear down), just figure out your MAP.  For example, with level approach speed gear down, I know that MAP 22" and full forwards prop is the setting, no sense bothering with RPM.

Approach speed (100 KIAS), flaps 15 deg, gear down.  RPM full forwards:

• Level - MAP 22"
• Descent 500 fpm - MAP 17"

I put these on labels and stuck them on my panel, but these are the only settings worth committing to memory.  I got rid of everything else because it was just clutter.

I eliminated approach descents with gear up because it's almost impossible to descend at approach speeds without the gear down.

Holds -- I do holds at MAP 20" and RPM 2400, although I've started toying with MAP 22" and RPM 2200.  Both give me about 120 KIAS, which is a nice even number for holds measured in nautical miles rather than minutes.

Climbs -- All climbs should be at 100 KIAS, full throttle, 2700 RPM.  Why do less?  ATC expects you to climb at more than 500 fpm, and with an IO-360, you'll only get 500-1000 fpm at IFR altitudes anyway.

Level cruise -- Just lower the nose, reduce the MAP to a ballpark 25" or so if needed, and retrim.  Then you'll have time to futz around with your knobs.

Cruise descents -- just reduce MAP by 5" from your cruise setting and retrim.  Or if you're like most people here and want to go fast, just retrim and take a picture of your GPS ground speed 

 

[FloridaMan]

I run WOT and 2700RPM in the climb in my F. WOT and 2500 RPM in cruise, throw the gear down at 120mph early in the approach and fly it at that speed until FAF and then slow to 100mph. All runways with an ILS are at least 5000ft so any approach down to minimums you have enough space to bleed off your airspeed when you can see the runway. 

[Bob - S50]

I fly a J so specific numbers won't apply.

Climb.  Full power, lean to target EGT.

Cruise.  Range/ride dependent.  65-75% for longer flights at medium to higher altitudes and smooth air.  Slower for low altitude, short, or bumpy flights.

Hold?  Something below gear speed.  Gonna be holding a long time?  Consider slowing to best glide speed to conserve fuel.

Gear?  Depends on the approach.  Before I head for the airplane I study the approaches.  Through flight testing I've determined I can descend about 200'/nm, clean and about 120 KIAS without setting off the gear horn.  If the segment or segments prior to the FAF require a descent steeper than that, I'll plan to put the gear down prior to those segments.  If I am able to stay clean prior to the FAF, I'll plan to be below flap speed prior to the FAF, put the gear down about 1/2 mile prior to the FAF followed by enough flaps so I can maintain the glideslope without needing to run my engine in the yellow band (1500-1950 RPM).  I usually fly final at about 10 to 25 KIAS over my final approach speed.

You forgot about missed approach.  You'll do a lot more of those in training than you will in real life, but it's good to have a plan.  Once I lean for cruise, I don't generally touch the mixture again until I'm shutting the engine down for parking.  However, that requires that I practice my missed approaches to develop a good habit pattern:  cowl flaps open, then mixture full rich, then prop checked full forward, then throttle forward, start a climb, positive rate, gear up, 80 KIAS and still climbing, flaps up.  When you retract flaps the airplane will really want to pitch up.  Don't let it.  Since I have electric trim, I usually start running full nose down trim at the same time I flip the electric flaps lever up.  If I turned on the boost pump (which I usually don't) I then turn off the pump.  After I'm done with all that, start tracking the missed approach and then finally call ATC for the missed.  After that, it's just like a normal climb profile.

If ATC asks me to keep my speed up, and I feel like accommodating them, I'll fly final at 120 KIAS with the gear down and then at about 1.5 miles from touchdown I'll go to idle to slow, extend the flaps, and slow to final approach speed.  Through testing I determined that if I do that, it will take me about 400' of descent to slow to final approach speed.  I might end up being at idle all the way to touchdown though.

Remember though, just because you fly a fast airplane does not mean you need to fly it fast.  If you feel like you are behind the airplane, SLOW DOWN.  I'd slow to something comfortably above stall speed, but slow enough to give you more time.  If that's not enough, ask for delaying vectors.

Prior planning prevents poor performance.  Study the approach plates before you go so you won't be surprised.  As you get more proficient, you'll be able to do things a little more efficiently which will allow you to keep your speed up a little longer.

Have fun, and good luck.

[jaylw314]

6 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

Hold?  Something below gear speed.  Gonna be holding a long time?  Consider slowing to best glide speed to conserve fuel.

I'd avoid flying near best glide speed while IFR.  If you slow down below best glide, you'll start descending and slowing down more since you're on the back side of the power curve.  Not unrecoverable, but certainly one more distraction while you're busy.  And if you're on autopilot, it might get you in trouble.

Otherwise, I'm +1 on everything you said

 

[bob865]

Thanks everyone for the insight!  This definintely helps a lot!  PPP is definitely in my future, unfortunately it's not in the cards for this year (Just changed jobs so not very much PTO for this year and getting married in a couple of months so what PTO I have is accounted for).

This is exactlly what I needed.  A starting profile to dial in specific to my plane.  I'm sure I'll have more questions in the future, and unless something changes, moonesspace will always deliver.  

[FloridaMan]

Just as a note, I owned my M20F since 2012 and put over 1000 hours on it. I have only had to shoot one approach down to minimums and that when I took off from the east coast of Florida I could see my destination on the west coast, and watched the fog roll in at night. I kept my minimums conservative; while it was completely legal for me to fly ILS approaches to minimums and do my planning for destination plus alternate with conditions forecast to minimums, if the forecast was less than 1000ft ceilings, I would wait or use a different method. 

"When asked by the controller if he was experiencing any equipment problems, the pilot stated, "It's literally a washing machine as soon as we go through the cloud deck, the cloud deck's at 1,200 ft, before that everything's very easy, but once we get to 1,200 ft it's a washing machine." The controller then asked the pilot if it would be easier to attempt the RNAV approach, to which the pilot replied, "no localizer's way better.""

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20150304X81814&ntsbno=ERA15FA144&akey=1 

[bob865]

I agree, @Antares.  I'm a chicken when it comes to flying.  Could I make it?  I'm sure I could, but do I really want to take that chance?  I want to take long weekend trips, but I feel like without my instrument rating the risk of having to call out of Monday becuase I'm stuck somewhere for weather is just too high.  The couple of times I've had weather push me toward the ground are enough to keep from taking a lot of chances with it.  I always, so far, err on the side of caution, keeping in mind it's always better to wish I was in the sky than to wish I was on the ground.  My plan is to use the rating to get on top of those annoying 1000-2000ft celilings we seem to get a lot around here, not to fly in bad weather, and to have the comfort that should some clouds move in over my destination, that I don't have to search for a hole to get below them or search for a better airport.  I can instead just get a clearance and punch through the clounds.  Plus why have a mooney if you can't get high and fast!

[FloridaMan]

That's exactly how I think about my instrument rating. One other thing to watch out for: temperature and dewpoint spread, especially around a large area. If it's close, you can have an entire region that's clear skies, unlimited visibility turn to fog in a short period of time. 

[ValkyrieRider]

On 8/22/2018 at 11:45 AM, DXB said:

This is what I ultimately settled on during IR training in  my C model - same airframe as you but I'm not sure how much difference the extra 20 horses in the E makes.  I try to slow to gear speed within 0.5mi of the final fix.  After GUMPS, roughly 15"/2300rpm takes you down the glideslope nicely at around 105mph with minimal trim change.  I dump in flaps only once the runway is in sight - one less thing to deal with if going missed.   The J-bar retract on the missed can be a bit tricky since speed will be on the high end.  Learning a well coordinated "dip" addressed that issue.

 

I am finishing my transition time into my (new to me) M20C and will resume IFR training that I began in a 172.  These figures look OUTSTANDING and I am going to try them without the hood, just to get the feel for each - and validate if they are accurate for my Mooney (I suspect they will be).  

THANK YOU for sharing, this is amazing.

 

[ValkyrieRider]

On 8/22/2018 at 4:45 PM, Bob - S50 said:

I fly a J so specific numbers won't apply.

Climb.  Full power, lean to target EGT.

Cruise.  Range/ride dependent.  65-75% for longer flights at medium to higher altitudes and smooth air.  Slower for low altitude, short, or bumpy flights.

Hold?  Something below gear speed.  Gonna be holding a long time?  Consider slowing to best glide speed to conserve fuel.

Gear?  Depends on the approach.  Before I head for the airplane I study the approaches.  Through flight testing I've determined I can descend about 200'/nm, clean and about 120 KIAS without setting off the gear horn.  If the segment or segments prior to the FAF require a descent steeper than that, I'll plan to put the gear down prior to those segments.  If I am able to stay clean prior to the FAF, I'll plan to be below flap speed prior to the FAF, put the gear down about 1/2 mile prior to the FAF followed by enough flaps so I can maintain the glideslope without needing to run my engine in the yellow band (1500-1950 RPM).  I usually fly final at about 10 to 25 KIAS over my final approach speed.

You forgot about missed approach.  You'll do a lot more of those in training than you will in real life, but it's good to have a plan.  Once I lean for cruise, I don't generally touch the mixture again until I'm shutting the engine down for parking.  However, that requires that I practice my missed approaches to develop a good habit pattern:  cowl flaps open, then mixture full rich, then prop checked full forward, then throttle forward, start a climb, positive rate, gear up, 80 KIAS and still climbing, flaps up.  When you retract flaps the airplane will really want to pitch up.  Don't let it.  Since I have electric trim, I usually start running full nose down trim at the same time I flip the electric flaps lever up.  If I turned on the boost pump (which I usually don't) I then turn off the pump.  After I'm done with all that, start tracking the missed approach and then finally call ATC for the missed.  After that, it's just like a normal climb profile.

If ATC asks me to keep my speed up, and I feel like accommodating them, I'll fly final at 120 KIAS with the gear down and then at about 1.5 miles from touchdown I'll go to idle to slow, extend the flaps, and slow to final approach speed.  Through testing I determined that if I do that, it will take me about 400' of descent to slow to final approach speed.  I might end up being at idle all the way to touchdown though.

Remember though, just because you fly a fast airplane does not mean you need to fly it fast.  If you feel like you are behind the airplane, SLOW DOWN.  I'd slow to something comfortably above stall speed, but slow enough to give you more time.  If that's not enough, ask for delaying vectors.

Prior planning prevents poor performance.  Study the approach plates before you go so you won't be surprised.  As you get more proficient, you'll be able to do things a little more efficiently which will allow you to keep your speed up a little longer.

Have fun, and good luck.

 

Bob, I feel like I just took a Master's level course in reading your post.  I am printing it out so I can practice it and commit it to memory, at least while I validate with my M20C.  I appreciate the original poster "signing up for your class," because I got the advantage of the free education at the same time.  THANK YOU.

 

[DXB]

11 hours ago, ValkyrieRider said:

I am finishing my transition time into my (new to me) M20C and will resume IFR training that I began in a 172.  These figures look OUTSTANDING and I am going to try them without the hood, just to get the feel for each - and validate if they are accurate for my Mooney (I suspect they will be).  

THANK YOU for sharing, this is amazing.

Thanks I hope you find it useful - I took  numbers directly from the Mooney PPP guide as my starting point and worked them into a more logical format for me, then made small tweaks based on experiences during training.  The hardest part is going missed - carb heat off, full throttle, right rudder, establish climb attitude, then a little dip of the nose down to get the gear up with the J bar.  Challenging to do in unison with the button pushing and talking so of course do the flying first.  And if you struggle with the J bar, everything else tends to unravel.  I only finished IR in May, and so far it has been marvelously useful.  Keep going  - the training is not that much fun but you will love the added capability it gives you when finished.

[ValkyrieRider]

@DXB , I know that completing the IFR training will not only make the Mooney more practical for cross-country flying but will definitely make me a better pilot.  It already has, just going through about half of the training.  I live in Phoenix so we don't see too many IMC days, but travel outside the area and they become more abundant.  

[bob865]

Reviving my old post here.  I'm plugging my way through the training, finally!  It's been fun, though a challenge with the short days since I'm trying to fly after work which means I'm training primarily in the dark.  All of the above info has helped me greatly jump straight in.  Thank you all again.  I have new questions though. 

 What I'm finding is my biggest struggle is holding altitude to the PTS (+-100ft).  The Mooney seems to be a good bit more unstable in pitch than like a cessna or piper than I've flown previously.  Maybe it's not really as bad as it seems right now since I'm kinda anal and a bit of a perfectionist, but does anyone have any pointers on helping to improve how well I hold altitude?

[Immelman]

A property rigged mooney is a very stable IFR platform. If you are having trouble with altitude hold I would look very carefully at your trimming technique and then any issues with the airplane rigging. The problem is most likely the pilot, and the good news is that only takes some practice to fix.

Get to altitude, get the airspeed where you want it, set the power to hold that airspeed, and trim-trim-trim as you get that dialed in. Once property trimmed, if you don't touch anything, I think you'll see that your airplane will fly as if it were on rails. The final trim adjustments are very subtle. I use my electric trim for big changes, but use the manual trim wheel to adjust just those final touches as you have finer control... very very small movements.