RobertGary1

Checklist overload

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2 hours ago, NJMac said:

Hope I dont eat my words one day. However I just don't understand landing gear up. I call the gear my Mooney brakes. At 120 I drop gear and say aloud, "Mooney brakes engaged". Can't see slowing down easily without them activated.

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Much is beucause people put down flaps before the gear. Then forget the gear and go full flaps. The  drag profiles and flight characteristics are similar. Putting gear down before touching the flap lever, helps avoid this threat. 

Another is practicing an engine out to a landing.  Just commit to a go- around at the end of the scenario. 

Edited by jetdriven
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I use a checklist only after annual to make sure everything is set back to the normal setup that I always use. Since nobody else flies my airplane, and I don't fly any other airplanes, that's the only time things might have been left out of kilter.

After that, it's HATS for pre-taxi. Heading, Altimeter, Transponder, Switches. Pre-runup, it's FMP (I won't say what it stands for, but it's a shoe) Flaps, Mixture, Pump.

The only time I came very close to a gear-up landing was with an extremely experienced instructor when we were practicing landings at different slope angles because he felt I was doing all my landings a bit steep. He was making notes right before the flare, and I just felt I was coming in too hot, so I said "I don't like this speed" and did a go-around. When I went to raise the gear in the climbout, I realized it was already up. That OH SH*T moment. I just kept quiet, and didn't tell him. Until about 3 months later. The main takeaway I got from it was that gear-up landings are most likely to occur when you are doing something differently, or are distracted. If the speed in the flare seems high, don't hesitate to goaround and then check your gear :)

 

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7 minutes ago, Dave N1960 said:

After that, it's HATS for pre-taxi. Heading, Altimeter, Transponder, Switches. Pre-runup, it's FMP (I won't say what it stands for, but it's a shoe) Flaps, Mixture, Pump.

I like this and it's similar to what I do. Pre-taxi is only Switches and Altimeter. (The other stuff is automatic). Pre-runup is Flaps/Trim and we're ready to go.

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being honest, I follow the startup checklist to the T, have no idea why.  

Other than that, only checklist I religiously follow is GUUUUUMPFs.  

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My GUMPS:

G = Gear

U = Undercarriage (Gear)

M = Maybe I forgot the Gear

P = Perhaps I should check the Gear light too

S = Say, is the Gear handle in the block?

 

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9 hours ago, NJMac said:

Hope I dont eat my words one day. However I just don't understand landing gear up. I call the gear my Mooney brakes. At 120 I drop gear and say aloud, "Mooney brakes engaged". Can't see slowing down easily without them activated.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

Well I forgot flaps on landing once. Makes you think. I installed a voice annunicator almost 20 years ago to remind me if I ever forget. Knock on wood I haven't but some day I'm sure I will.

 

-robert

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Just now, RobertGary1 said:

Well I forgot flaps on landing once. Makes you think. I installed a voice annunicator almost 20 years ago to remind me if I ever forget. Knock on wood I haven't but some day I'm sure I will.

I've landed without flaps lots of time, but never because I forgot.

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I ain't sayin' nothin' lest I become the next member of the club.

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9 hours ago, Dave N1960 said:

My GUMPS:

G = Gear

U = Undercarriage (Gear)

M = Maybe I forgot the Gear

P = Perhaps I should check the Gear light too

S = Say, is the Gear handle in the block?

 

You ever try an ocd approach such as tugging on it on short final?  I’ve started touching the gear down light. 

-Robert 

Edited by RobertGary1

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I find it interesting that expendable income pilots do not see the utility in checklist usage, yet professional pilots use them.

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35 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

You ever try an ocd approach such as tugging on it on short final? 

There’s gotta be a witty reply to this...

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2 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

You ever try an ocd approach such as tugging on it on short final?  I’ve started touching the gear down light. 

Not witty, but on base leg I'll touch the switch to verify it's down (right beside the little green light), and on final I point to the floor indicator.

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3 hours ago, kpaul said:

I find it interesting that expendable income pilots do not see the utility in checklist usage, yet professional pilots use them.

Must be they are not "real pilots." Either that or since they do so much recurrent training and proficiency checks, there's always someone who is bugging them. It couldn't have anything to do with the much lower accident rate. 

:rolleyes:

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Just to add another twist on the checklist discussion. I do a fair amount of safety pilot flying and get to see checklist usage (or lack thereof) firsthand. I have flown with pilots who use them correctly, those who try to use them but have issues and those who don’t use them at all.

 

If the checklist is too long or detailed, they fall into the second category of trying but having issues. The issue is typically an effect on their flying skills. They get behind the plane or in some cases have lost some level of control (forgetting to navigate, reporting the missed, etc.) or skip through checklist items that matter.

 

For those who don’t use them, I have had the pleasure of pointing out a number of items being overlooked on a miss (cowl flaps, boost pump, flaps still out hanging in the breeze, even an occasional gear left down). I’ve yet to have the experience of no checklist users not missing something.

 

The ones who seem to have effective checklists for single pilot CRM are the ones who are using a flow, followed up by an abbreviated checklist with the correct items on it.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

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23 hours ago, Marauder said:

Just to add another twist on the checklist discussion. I do a fair amount of safety pilot flying and get to see checklist usage (or lack thereof) firsthand. I have flown with pilots who use them correctly, those who try to use them but have issues and those who don’t use them at all....

I see the same in terms of the your description of what they end up doing. Here's another twist... particularly in transition training,is see lack of checklist use leading to lack of checklist use. Example of what I mean:

I was transitioning a pilot from a 172 to a 182. World's easiest transition (along with Cherokee to Dakota). Prop/MP and cowl flaps are about it. The pilot had moved to a typical 172 flow in lieu of a written checklist for everything after takeoff. Many do. After all, it's only fuel and mixture (and carb heat if carbureted). Hardly a need for a written checklist for those.

But, what happened was this. As usual, the prop/MP was a non-issue but, time after time, on every setup for approach to landing I had to remind the trainee to close the cowl flaps. Finally, I decided to simply say, "You've forgotten something." 

He would look all around the cockpit, looking for what he might have missed. I chuckled when he tightened his seatbelt. The one thing he never looked at, thought, was  the checklist lying on top of the glareshield in his line of sight. He had gotten so used to not using a checklist that referencing it never even crossed his mind. 

Edited by midlifeflyer
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On 8/11/2018 at 1:45 PM, jetdriven said:

Much is beucause people put down flaps before the gear. Then forget the gear and go full flaps. The  drag profiles and flight characteristics are similar. Putting gear down before touching the flap lever, helps avoid this threat. 

Another is practicing an engine out to a landing.  Just commit to a go- around at the end of the scenario. 

You won't do that in the older Mooneys. Gear speed is 120 mph, flap speed is 100 mph.  If you don't put gear down you will have a hard time getting down to flap speed.

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My old Mooney has flap speed 125 mph, gear speed 120 mph.

I put flaps down by early downwind / IAF, and use gear to start descent abeam intended point of landing / dot-and-a-half above glideslope / FAF. Then I check twice. If speed is too fast, check gear first!

My first curved GPS approach over the bay into the Mooney Summit, in actual, I forgot the gear (curved GPS approaches aren't common for me), and could hold only glideslope or speed, but never both. Dropping the gear cleared it up . . . .  :rolleyes:

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That is because Mooney changed a number of items in 1968/69. The 67 and earlier models (the vast majority produced) have the lower flap speed.

Yours has electric flaps, which have different mounting and leverage, compared to the earlier (and IMHO more desireable, hydraulic) flaps.

I still would not use flaps before gear. Gear is more effective for drag.

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I have a lawyer in my cockpit every time I fly.

I have a long list up until takeoff, then everything is mnemonics and flows.  I won't use electronic checklists they take way too long.  I  just use a list that I can run down.  I have a checklist I put together and used on paper, and then when Foreflight came along I converted it to a pdf and store it as a Foreflight document.  I pull it up and use it before every single flight.  It has emergency checklists also, but real emergencies are Decide Do, then maybe if there is time look at the checklist to see if you forgot anything.

I use a GUMPS check for landing, and I do it regardless of the aircraft I am flying, so if I fly an aircraft with fixed gear I still check off undercarriage.  Habits can be good and bad.  Not good to build in a habit of not checking the gear.

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14 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

I have a lawyer in my cockpit every time I fly.

I have a long list up until takeoff, then everything is mnemonics and flows.  I won't use electronic checklists they take way too long.  I  just use a list that I can run down.  I have a checklist I put together and used on paper, and then when Foreflight came along I converted it to a pdf and store it as a Foreflight document.  I pull it up and use it before every single flight.  It has emergency checklists also, but real emergencies are Decide Do, then maybe if there is time look at the checklist to see if you forgot anything.

I use a GUMPS check for landing, and I do it regardless of the aircraft I am flying, so if I fly an aircraft with fixed gear I still check off undercarriage.  Habits can be good and bad.  Not good to build in a habit of not checking the gear.

I do similar to that. I have longer checklists for pre-flight, startup, run-up and prior to take off. For pre-flight I go through the plane and then check my list to make sure I didn't miss something. Startup, run-up, and prior to take off I go through step by step as there is plenty of time and no reason to rush through anything. Prior to take-off I also review the emergency procedures for engine out and climb/cruise but I don't look at the checklist again until in cruise where I double check I didn't miss something. Sometime in cruise prior to descent I review my descent and landing checklists but don't refer to them again after that. In the pattern I do a GUMPS check. I haven't flown anything except my Mooney since getting it but when I was doing my PPL in the Cherokees I would do the GUMPS check and for undercarriage I would say "Undercarriage - Fixed Gear."

Even with mnemonics and flows I have found that it is helpful to scan down a checklist and have found on an occasion here and there that I did miss something. Thankfully nothing that I have missed has been critical items and there has been no long term harm done. 

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