EricJ Posted August 2, 2018 Report Share Posted August 2, 2018 2 minutes ago, rogerl said: Really? Haven't bought a Mooney yet, asking about limitations and an extremely challenging strip ill suited for a Mooney, don't know what a pirep is? Trolling one can only hope; otherwise: !Danger! Will Robinson !Danger! Wishing best of luck and most of caution - pirep = Pilot Report, same as for weather pireps. Are you a pilot yet? It's okay if not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted August 2, 2018 Report Share Posted August 2, 2018 Before attempting anything like this, it is crucial first to paint the Punisher Skull logo on your aircraft. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwing Posted August 2, 2018 Report Share Posted August 2, 2018 I in the leave the Mooney behind...I've flown into chicken strip twice.It technically is a blm/Forrest service unimproved loose graded surface with 1300 usable.A true gravel strip is much smoother...years ago it was created by a cat pulling a dredge and thus prone to water runoff rutting AND more importantly dirt bikes racing on it can tear it up .The hot springs is about a 1/4 mile away and quite a treat.Typically people drive in from the highway 40/50 miles away and are warned to pack spares.Ive been there with medium tire Husky and a big tired supercub..no problems but I've landed on smoother river sandbars.Leave the Mooney behind. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMuncy Posted August 2, 2018 Report Share Posted August 2, 2018 4 hours ago, rogerl said: Really? Haven't bought a Mooney yet, asking about limitations and an extremely challenging strip ill suited for a Mooney, don't know what a pirep is? Trolling one can only hope; otherwise: !Danger! Will Robinson !Danger! Wishing best of luck and most of caution - Don't worry about it. You have to hang around aviation (or Mooneyspace) for a long time to pick up on all the jargon; and even then you will get stumped every once in a while. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Avalle Posted August 2, 2018 Report Share Posted August 2, 2018 Well, let me join into the discussion, Mooney are OK for grass fields. You just have to be careful with the speeds and with the fields. It should not have to many holes... I flew and will be flying into grass strips again. They are nice and can give you very smooth landings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skates97 Posted August 2, 2018 Report Share Posted August 2, 2018 18 hours ago, carusoam said: See if you can find the videos of Bryan and his Mooney on the YouTube channel.... He has a lot of experience flying in and out of unimproved strips... Best regards, -a- 18 hours ago, Dshevick said: I can't find Byran videos, doing a bunch of searches like 'bryan mooney gravel field runway' any links/usernames? Here you go, for your viewing pleasure. https://www.youtube.com/user/piperpainter/videos 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 3, 2018 Report Share Posted August 3, 2018 For the new pilot.... Asking if his plane is capable of using a really short, unpaved strip... I applaud your courage. Not all pilots have asked this important question, and experimented, knowingly or un-knowingly, with their planes... 1) First thing the pilot does... check the length of the runway... data available on the internet and pilot apps... 2) Compare to performance charts for the plane... charts use temp, altitude, surface type, wet/dry, and wind speed and direction... 3) Keep in mind landing distance and take-off distances are not at all the same. And, they are only somewhat related... weight and power 4) Horsepower and lift are very temperature and altitude dependent... Most data is given for a standard day... (T-shirt weather) and gets worse as things heat up... 5) The warmer the air temp is... the less power the engine can generate. (Check your charts) 6) The warmer the air temperature is... the less lift the wings generate. (Look up the density altitude, check your charts) 7) Altitude has a similar effect... the air gets less dense the higher the field altitude is... 8) The next thing is to check the weight and balance... 9) After that... comes the surface quality... paved and smooth is usually the best for short T/O and landings... wet and grassy is pretty well known for adding 10s of percentages to the length of operations... sandy and loose... can have some unknown additions to length... 10) Perfect Mooney landings... can take about 1,000 feet... this requires going slow enough to stop flying as you come upon the first foot of runway... too slow... the plane stops flying before the ground is reached (bad). Run out of energy too soon... the plane lands before the runway... (a set up for an accident and bent things)... 11) once on the ground stopping distance becomes important.... dry pavement is good for stopping distances... wet, grass, gravel... not good for stopping distances... 12) lets say you got the plane safely on the ground... and it’s time to go home... the Take-off run is going to be defined by the power your engine can generate... and how much weight you need to get off the ground... density altitude and power charts are going to be your friend... the runway surface is going to be very important for how much drag it generates... 13) Decisions on the fly... Take-off... very often pilots use a factor of safety like... the halfway point... If not in the air by the halfway point... enact plan B... Stop stop stop ..... 14) Another decision on the fly... The Landing... If not on the ground by the halfway point... enact plan B... go go go.... execute a go around. 15) These decisions on the fly are things to do to avoid the dangers of running out of runway... nothing like running out of runway while going really fast... 16) As a student pilot... you get a lot of rules... like no landing on grass fields... or runway lengths must be >2,000’. these are set up by schools that tire from small student misjudgments that cost large dollars... 17) As a private pilot... you get some rules set up by your insurance company... the weirder your requirements are (their opinion) the more expensive your insurance will be.... 18) So... under the right conditions, a Mooney, (not all Mooneys), is physically capable of using a 1300’ runway for both landing and take-off... 19) As relayed before... just because the plane is capable, doesn’t mean every pilot that flys that plane is capable of performing the duties... 20) Judgment... knowing the quality of the landing surface requires a fair amount of judgment... this isn’t going to be done by flying by at 100mph.... watch how the experimentalists put one wheel down to feel the surface before coming back to land on it... they are literally flying while touching one one wheel down.... 21) one step at a time... There are so many skills to acquire beforentaking on this challenge. Learn to fly, get PPL... Learn and practice short T/O and landing skills... in a trainer. Use long runways for practice. Measure your skills with an app.... CloudAhoy is good for this... (guessing won’t help enough) Expand your skills with a complex more powerful plane... expand your skills under various conditions, weather, temp, wind.... 22) Then take all your skills and deliver them to Chicken Strip... 23) Sounds like a lot of effort to Join a naked ice cream party... 24) What is the general age of the people that are hanging out at Chicken Strip? 25) Lots of math and calculations and knowledge and practice... to do some of these things safely... I get the feeling, I would need to bring a lot of ice cream to make friends... This list is only ideas off the top of a private pilot’s head. Not to be used as some form of guidance... Ds, are ya still with me? Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immelman Posted August 3, 2018 Report Share Posted August 3, 2018 (edited) And I responded having no idea that the poster was a new pilot and not mooney owner. I will change my reply to this: DONT DO IT!! Get a 4x4 and drive in. Or maybe one of those touring dirt bikes. I flew with an airline guy who would go out to saline / death valley as part of a big annual off-road camp and ride. Sounded like a great time!! Even if you did buy a plane, I wouldn't suggest this sort of thing until you had it a few years, and 400-500 hours in it, including lots of mountain flying and unpaved time. I am not saying this to boast; I am not God's gift to aviation..... I have made errors and will continue to make them... the trick is managing your screw ups and knowing, in the moment, when it will or will not work and acting accordingly before you become committed to a particular outcome. That comes from experience, there is no substitute. Edited August 3, 2018 by Immelman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted August 3, 2018 Report Share Posted August 3, 2018 Goals are important in aviation. Learn to fly Get a plane Fly out and land at the Chicken Strip These three steps might take some time... and a Mooney might not be the best choice of plane... but no reason it can't be done. I'm not confident I could get my M20K off the soft surface in the allotted 1300 ft. I'm pretty sure my M20C would have handled it easily. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartman Posted August 3, 2018 Report Share Posted August 3, 2018 I don't usually respond on threads like this because I have no experience with the topic. I won't be going places like this, because I have no experience. I'm sure I could land on 1,300 feet because I routinely challenge my self to be off at the first exit which is at 1,000 ft at my home airport, but I have 4,500 of smooth surface as insurance after that. My experience and equipment are not up to the task to deal with the consequences of any of the multiple adverse events that could easily happen, miles from civilization in the middle of nowhere. I won't be going places like this because I have no experience dealing with unexpected complications like.... fill in the blank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartman Posted August 3, 2018 Report Share Posted August 3, 2018 Watching the above video from @Oscar Avalle I noticed on the belly camera just after touching down looked like a snake got kicked up by your tire and momentarily hung on for a ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted August 3, 2018 Report Share Posted August 3, 2018 17 hours ago, Oscar Avalle said: Well, let me join into the discussion, Mooney are OK for grass fields. You just have to be careful with the speeds and with the fields. It should not have to many holes... I flew and will be flying into grass strips again. They are nice and can give you very smooth landings. Haven't yet been to Ixtapa, but I'll land that when I get down there, looks pretty benign. There's a turf strip on the shores of Lake Attitlan I'm jonesing to land, but have reservations given that its a third world grass strip and all. Ever seen it or landed it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Avalle Posted August 3, 2018 Report Share Posted August 3, 2018 2 hours ago, Bartman said: Watching the above video from @Oscar Avalle I noticed on the belly camera just after touching down looked like a snake got kicked up by your tire and momentarily hung on for a ride. Could be, never noticed it. But would not be surprised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Avalle Posted August 3, 2018 Report Share Posted August 3, 2018 5 minutes ago, steingar said: Haven't yet been to Ixtapa, but I'll land that when I get down there, looks pretty benign. There's a turf strip on the shores of Lake Attitlan I'm jonesing to land, but have reservations given that its a third world grass strip and all. Ever seen it or landed it? Iztapa is very well groomed and in perfect shape. It feels like a golf field. Now, regarding the one at Lake Atitlan, I did not fly into it, but I visited it. I would not be concerned about the up keep (cheap labor helps) but the approach is a killer. It is high altitude and you have to fly a very precise approach. So I passed... But I also know that many people fly into that field and they love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted August 3, 2018 Report Share Posted August 3, 2018 3 hours ago, Oscar Avalle said: Iztapa is very well groomed and in perfect shape. It feels like a golf field. Now, regarding the one at Lake Atitlan, I did not fly into it, but I visited it. I would not be concerned about the up keep (cheap labor helps) but the approach is a killer. It is high altitude and you have to fly a very precise approach. So I passed... But I also know that many people fly into that field and they love it. That approach didn't look all that bad to me, unless those trees are bigger than they look. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBDiagMan Posted August 5, 2018 Report Share Posted August 5, 2018 On 8/2/2018 at 8:50 AM, steingar said: The below is takeoff and landing from 6Y9, a badly occluded 2600 turf strip in the middle of the Michigan Upper Penninsula. There’s a BUNCH of difference between gravel and grass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Avalle Posted August 11, 2018 Report Share Posted August 11, 2018 On 8/3/2018 at 3:19 PM, steingar said: That approach didn't look all that bad to me, unless those trees are bigger than they look. The issue with the approach are the winds. They are tricky and downdrafts are usual and can get you into trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dshevick Posted August 22, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2018 On 8/2/2018 at 10:31 PM, gsxrpilot said: Goals are important in aviation. Learn to fly Get a plane Fly out and land at the Chicken Strip These three steps might take some time... and a Mooney might not be the best choice of plane... but no reason it can't be done. I'm not confident I could get my M20K off the soft surface in the allotted 1300 ft. I'm pretty sure my M20C would have handled it easily. I thought the M20K (210hp) is alot more powerful than an M20C (180hp)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted August 22, 2018 Report Share Posted August 22, 2018 25 minutes ago, Dshevick said: I thought the M20K (210hp) is alot more powerful than an M20C (180hp)? My K is a lot heavier than my C and only 30 more hp. At high DA, the C would struggle, but at low elevations, the C gets off the ground quicker than the K. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dshevick Posted August 22, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2018 1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said: My K is a lot heavier than my C and only 30 more hp. At high DA, the C would struggle, but at low elevations, the C gets off the ground quicker than the K. thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 On 8/2/2018 at 1:35 AM, Dshevick said: takeoff is downhill, no runup, easy constant throttle up, roll, lift nose as soon possible. rotate when can fly into ground effect, gain speed.. off? DS, Because you are still here some 20 days after your first questions... T/O distance is highly related to Power, weight, OAT, and Density altitude.... + experience... take-off may not always be downhill... depending on the wind... no run-up? When does that make a good option..? Easy constant throttle up...? Probably not, you are short on runway already... Mostly, I don’t understand exactly what you wrote... but, I do know that the Mooney POH covers a few procedures including short field operations... that are specific to how to handle these kind of things... Please be sure to get Transition Training with your new acquisition... getting aesperience delivered via fire hose is better than trying to learn this on your own... There is no sense in rushing into a bad situation... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dshevick Posted August 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2018 On 8/2/2018 at 7:57 PM, carusoam said: For the new pilot.... Asking if his plane is capable of using a really short, unpaved strip... I applaud your courage. Not all pilots have asked this important question, and experimented, knowingly or un-knowingly, with their planes... 1) First thing the pilot does... check the length of the runway... data available on the internet and pilot apps... 2) Compare to performance charts for the plane... charts use temp, altitude, surface type, wet/dry, and wind speed and direction... 3) Keep in mind landing distance and take-off distances are not at all the same. And, they are only somewhat related... weight and power 4) Horsepower and lift are very temperature and altitude dependent... Most data is given for a standard day... (T-shirt weather) and gets worse as things heat up... 5) The warmer the air temp is... the less power the engine can generate. (Check your charts) 6) The warmer the air temperature is... the less lift the wings generate. (Look up the density altitude, check your charts) 7) Altitude has a similar effect... the air gets less dense the higher the field altitude is... 8) The next thing is to check the weight and balance... 9) After that... comes the surface quality... paved and smooth is usually the best for short T/O and landings... wet and grassy is pretty well known for adding 10s of percentages to the length of operations... sandy and loose... can have some unknown additions to length... 10) Perfect Mooney landings... can take about 1,000 feet... this requires going slow enough to stop flying as you come upon the first foot of runway... too slow... the plane stops flying before the ground is reached (bad). Run out of energy too soon... the plane lands before the runway... (a set up for an accident and bent things)... 11) once on the ground stopping distance becomes important.... dry pavement is good for stopping distances... wet, grass, gravel... not good for stopping distances... 12) lets say you got the plane safely on the ground... and it’s time to go home... the Take-off run is going to be defined by the power your engine can generate... and how much weight you need to get off the ground... density altitude and power charts are going to be your friend... the runway surface is going to be very important for how much drag it generates... 13) Decisions on the fly... Take-off... very often pilots use a factor of safety like... the halfway point... If not in the air by the halfway point... enact plan B... Stop stop stop ..... 14) Another decision on the fly... The Landing... If not on the ground by the halfway point... enact plan B... go go go.... execute a go around. 15) These decisions on the fly are things to do to avoid the dangers of running out of runway... nothing like running out of runway while going really fast... 16) As a student pilot... you get a lot of rules... like no landing on grass fields... or runway lengths must be >2,000’. these are set up by schools that tire from small student misjudgments that cost large dollars... 17) As a private pilot... you get some rules set up by your insurance company... the weirder your requirements are (their opinion) the more expensive your insurance will be.... 18) So... under the right conditions, a Mooney, (not all Mooneys), is physically capable of using a 1300’ runway for both landing and take-off... 19) As relayed before... just because the plane is capable, doesn’t mean every pilot that flys that plane is capable of performing the duties... 20) Judgment... knowing the quality of the landing surface requires a fair amount of judgment... this isn’t going to be done by flying by at 100mph.... watch how the experimentalists put one wheel down to feel the surface before coming back to land on it... they are literally flying while touching one one wheel down.... 21) one step at a time... There are so many skills to acquire beforentaking on this challenge. Learn to fly, get PPL... Learn and practice short T/O and landing skills... in a trainer. Use long runways for practice. Measure your skills with an app.... CloudAhoy is good for this... (guessing won’t help enough) Expand your skills with a complex more powerful plane... expand your skills under various conditions, weather, temp, wind.... 22) Then take all your skills and deliver them to Chicken Strip... 23) Sounds like a lot of effort to Join a naked ice cream party... 24) What is the general age of the people that are hanging out at Chicken Strip? 25) Lots of math and calculations and knowledge and practice... to do some of these things safely... I get the feeling, I would need to bring a lot of ice cream to make friends... This list is only ideas off the top of a private pilot’s head. Not to be used as some form of guidance... Ds, are ya still with me? Best regards, -a- thank you very much for this. david 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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