DavidA Posted July 28, 2018 Report Share Posted July 28, 2018 Hello all, I have the opportunity to buy into a 1979 Mooney 231. The bird is in what I would call fair to good shape. Older paint and interior but both are ok other then some cracking on the front of the cowl. The airplane just came out of annual and a new ifr certification. All compressions look good and the oil analysis was clean. Talked to the A/P that did the annual he has no major issues. The engine and prop are both mid to high time at about 1300 hours. 1979 231 with intercooler 1300 hours on engine and prop garmin 480 and mx20 xm wx, and music JPI 700 O2 Know issues fuel tanks will need a strip and seal soon no ADS/B So the price for my quarter share would be $15,000. The plan is to have a flat fee per month for hanger, insurance, annual and data subscription of about $250 and a charge of $50 an hour to the MX fund. The current owner no longer can fly alone (age) but doesn't want to give up his bird so he is offering 3 of us the quarter shares. We do have the right to buy his share when he no longer wants it. So yes? No? Comments? Any advice would be appreciated, I am currently renting a SR22 from a flying club at $249 and hour wet. Thanks all, DavidA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted July 28, 2018 Report Share Posted July 28, 2018 $249 for a rental! Ouch! How often do you fly? And your partners? Fuel tanks repair will run close to $10k. Don’t know if 480 is WAAS enabled, ADSB could be $5-$15. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwnel Posted July 28, 2018 Report Share Posted July 28, 2018 (edited) Looks like a fine plane. Bought my 231 this year and can't be happier. Like you I was renting prior to that. Engine management on a 231 is critical. It'll be important that all the partners understand this intimately and fly the plane accordingly. If that's met, with 3 partners you'll also fly it enough which is key in keeping the engine happy. The more it's flown, the better. I might consider upgrading the JPI 700 for a JPI 830. This has data download capabilities which - when uploaded to Savvyanalysis.com - will really help monitoring how all partners are flying the plane. (I wouldn't let anyone who's not specifically familiar with 231 operations touch my plane - no matter how experienced). http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/in/enginemonitors_jpi_edm830/jpi730830upgrade.php You're on Mooneyspace, which is good. I continue to learn a ton here as a new owner. Many very helpful folk around. Lastly, get proper transition training for all partners. Consider one of the MAPA courses. http://www.mapasafety.com/proficiency Edited July 28, 2018 by pwnel 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidA Posted July 28, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, teejayevans said: $249 for a rental! Ouch! How often do you fly? And your partners? Fuel tanks repair will run close to $10k. Don’t know if 480 is WAAS enabled, ADSB could be $5-$15. Actually for a SR22 that is not bad, I rent a Gen3, another place in Denver Rents newer SR22's at over $300 an hour dry. The 480 is WAAS the airplane was used as an avionics testbed before the current owner bought it. We all fly a lot but not the Mooney, 2 of us work for SWA one works for United. I am the only one that currently is flying piston equipment on a regular basis. I fly about every other month a nice 6 to 8 hour trip but may do more of that if I'm not renting. In the last few years I have been flying the SR22 and a really nice V35. DavidA Edited July 28, 2018 by DavidA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMuncy Posted July 28, 2018 Report Share Posted July 28, 2018 The numbers look OK, but the partner situation is something to look at very carefully. Partnerships are kind of like a marriage without the benefits of sex. Not only do you have to worry about compatibility about when to make improvements, whether to delay some maintenance items, etc., you also have to worry about how the others are treating the engine. In a 231, this is very important. I'm not saying it is a bad deal; but it could turn bad quickly. If you had the money to buy the others out at most anytime, and a contract about how to do it, it might be a little more palatable. Are the tanks seeping/leaking. Just because a certain time has passed, does not mean they will need sealing at any particular time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted July 28, 2018 Report Share Posted July 28, 2018 How many hours a year do you project flying? This number will dictate whether buying, renting, or sharing is the best deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted July 28, 2018 Report Share Posted July 28, 2018 2 hours ago, pwnel said: I might consider upgrading the JPI 700 for a JPI 830. This has data download capabilities which - when uploaded to Savvyanalysis.com - will really help monitoring how all partners are flying the plane. (I wouldn't let anyone who's not specifically familiar with 231 operations touch my plane - no matter how experienced). http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/in/enginemonitors_jpi_edm830/jpi730830upgrade.php Sidebar--the JPI 700 can download data as well, although the serial connection needs to be enabled and installed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted July 28, 2018 Report Share Posted July 28, 2018 1 hour ago, DonMuncy said: The numbers look OK, but the partner situation is something to look at very carefully. Partnerships are kind of like a marriage without the benefits of sex. Not only do you have to worry about compatibility about when to make improvements, whether to delay some maintenance items, etc., you also have to worry about how the others are treating the engine. In a 231, this is very important. I'm not saying it is a bad deal; but it could turn bad quickly. If you had the money to buy the others out at most anytime, and a contract about how to do it, it might be a little more palatable. Are the tanks seeping/leaking. Just because a certain time has passed, does not mean they will need sealing at any particular time. Now that you mention that, I wonder if using a service like SavvyMx also help a group of owners find consensus on maintenance harder or more easily? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted July 28, 2018 Report Share Posted July 28, 2018 Financially if you fly more than 25 hours, then you should partner up, generally if you fly more than 100 hours then you should buy your own. Partnership requires sacrifices, for example everyone may want the plane at the same time (holidays, weekends). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMuncy Posted July 28, 2018 Report Share Posted July 28, 2018 2 hours ago, jaylw314 said: Now that you mention that, I wonder if using a service like SavvyMx also help a group of owners find consensus on maintenance harder or more easily? I really have no idea, but I suspect it would not make that much difference. Savvy, in my opinion is better suited to getting your plane going again, whereas most partnership problems would be in the area of " we need new donuts, do we do it now or next year". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted July 28, 2018 Report Share Posted July 28, 2018 I think SavvyMx makes sense when you don't have an A&P/AI you can trust to know your plane and act in your best interest. And if you're in that position, Savvy is just a band-aid until you find a shop you can trust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMuncy Posted July 28, 2018 Report Share Posted July 28, 2018 30 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said: I think SavvyMx makes sense when you don't have an A&P/AI you can trust to know your plane and act in your best interest. And if you're in that position, Savvy is just a band-aid until you find a shop you can trust. If you are flying a lot of cross country stuff like gsxrpilot, I think Savvy would make a lot of sense. Having someone knowledgeable to help in an AOG situation would be invaluable. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted July 28, 2018 Report Share Posted July 28, 2018 Just now, DonMuncy said: If you are flying a lot of cross country stuff like gsxrpilot, I think Savvy would make a lot of sense. Having someone knowledgeable to help in an AOG situation would be invaluable. 7,725 this month. (That's an anomaly, but loved every mile of it.) I'll call JD Casteel and put him on a plane to come take care of it. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMuncy Posted July 28, 2018 Report Share Posted July 28, 2018 1 minute ago, gsxrpilot said: 7,725 this month. (That's an anomaly, but loved every mile of it.) I'll call JD Casteel and put him on a plane to come take care of it. :-) I wonder how big a tool box you could carry on a commercial flight. About a zillion years ago, I took a SW flight from Dallas to Minneapolis to buy a Lotus and carried about 5 pounds of tools wrapped in a red shop towel. They ran it through their X-ray machine. They were curious, but not concerned. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill98 Posted July 29, 2018 Report Share Posted July 29, 2018 1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said: 7,725 this month. (That's an anomaly, but loved every mile of it.) I'll call JD Casteel and put him on a plane to come take care of it. :-) That’s what I do for a living! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20C_AV8R Posted July 29, 2018 Report Share Posted July 29, 2018 (edited) Partnerships in quarters are a bigger risk than the plane, IMO, agreeing on repairs, upgrades etc will drive you nuts when it’s by committee with a group of varying ideas and personal finances to consider. Have a lawyer or someone you trust to look over the llc documents, including all existing agreements and any that may be missing, and any other docs that bind you. This helps you to understand what every partner is equally responsible for despite varying opinions that may exist that you are unaware of, also, make sure there is clear understanding on all non and monthly recurring costs, as well hourly, fuel, non capital and capital bank accounts and how the money is managed and who does it. Expectations that you have of this are also an important consideration, make sure it’s something you are comfortable with and absolutely make sure everyone is on the same page as to how the planes time gets scheduled and used amongst you so there is no conflicts. Looks like a nice plane, the costs are real to get the tanks done, adsb, annuals, repairs etc, a little forethought now will go a long way later. Edited July 29, 2018 by M20C_AV8R 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainAB Posted July 29, 2018 Report Share Posted July 29, 2018 249 wet for an SR22 can’t be beat. Unless you are flying 200 hours a year. If it’s pride of ownership your after then I agree with the comments above. More then one partner is likely one too many. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcstealth Posted July 29, 2018 Report Share Posted July 29, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, teejayevans said: Financially if you fly more than 25 hours, then you should partner up, generally if you fly more than 100 hours then you should buy your own. Partnership requires sacrifices, for example everyone may want the plane at the same time (holidays, weekends). Thanks for those numbers. I was wondering what/where the break was. Do you have experience with these numbers, or did you do the math with others? Edited July 29, 2018 by Mcstealth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted July 29, 2018 Report Share Posted July 29, 2018 Thanks for those numbers. I was wondering what/where the break was. Do you have experience with these numbers, or did you do the math with others? I did the math for the partnership using his numbers, rounded up to 25. Not knowing actual numbers for ownership the 100 is a rule of thumb.It’s a bit an apples/oranges comparison because I can take my plane on a trip and leave it at the airport and the plane doesn’t cost me a dime. If you rent there will be a minimums hr/day charge like 4 hours. So you go on a 4 day weekend, 3 hours of flying away, end up putting 6 hours on the hobbs and you get charged for 16 hours...in this case renting starts to add up. I spend 30 days or more on the road, J rental would be about $175...that’s $21000, versus around $4000 because I own. Obviously renting is no good for me, partnership wouldn’t be either because I fly alot during holidays. In OP’s case, if all four partners fly mainly on weekends and fly fairly often, there is going to be scheduling conflicts. Owning maximizes freedom, but comes with increased fixed costs. Only thing partnerships do is reduce fixed costs (75% in this case): basically hangar and annual, assuming $6000, thats $4500 in savings. It’s up to the OP to decide if it’s worth it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiny moose Posted July 29, 2018 Report Share Posted July 29, 2018 Partnerships are always tough, with a turbocharged airplane it could be costly, if its not managed properly. Collecting data will show you the past, it will not prevent misuse only show when it was done then its the blame game. IMHO buy your own airplane, buy the best maintained airplane you can afford(not the prettiest). Do you really need a turbo? Mountains, DA issues. Have a great annual accomplished during the purchase process, find a trustworthy knowlagable mechanic to maintain it, learn about preventative maintenance and do it, fly when you want, pay your own bills, Uprgade if and when you want. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidA Posted August 1, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 On 7/28/2018 at 12:31 PM, DonMuncy said: The numbers look OK, but the partner situation is something to look at very carefully. Partnerships are kind of like a marriage without the benefits of sex. Not only do you have to worry about compatibility about when to make improvements, whether to delay some maintenance items, etc., you also have to worry about how the others are treating the engine. In a 231, this is very important. I'm not saying it is a bad deal; but it could turn bad quickly. If you had the money to buy the others out at most anytime, and a contract about how to do it, it might be a little more palatable. Are the tanks seeping/leaking. Just because a certain time has passed, does not mean they will need sealing at any particular time. A bit of fuel smell with full tanks some of the upper panels were resealed at annual have to see if that fixed the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidA Posted August 1, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 On 7/28/2018 at 5:34 PM, DonMuncy said: I wonder how big a tool box you could carry on a commercial flight. About a zillion years ago, I took a SW flight from Dallas to Minneapolis to buy a Lotus and carried about 5 pounds of tools wrapped in a red shop towel. They ran it through their X-ray machine. They were curious, but not concerned. They a little touchy about tools that could be used as a weapon now. Good luck if you want to carry them on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTaylor Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 A partnership can be good and bad. Selecting the partners is important for the long term success. They should have the a same objectives for the plane, relative financial resources, and enough flight time and temperament to treat the plane well. That said, I am very happy with our partnership. For me the Mooney is a tool to get me where I want to be. I have a glider that I fly for fun so I don't need the $200 hamburger or to go out and fly around the pattern on Saturday morning. I appreciate the skills my partners bring and the shared costs make it affordable for me to fly. The numbers you posted are reasonable, they should cover basic costs and allow for a reserve fund. We use the fuel totalizer to charge for actual fuel used so each pilot can fly how they wish to fly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARZ Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 Did anyone else notice the oil stained carpet and the fact the nose wheel was sitting in an oil drip pan??? I'd do a PPI (pre partner inspection) before I bought in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 1, 2018 Report Share Posted August 1, 2018 Yes you should buy in... Partneships are great for minimizing costs... Learning about ownership without jumping in with both feet.... No you shouldn’t buy in... If you aren’t familiar with working closely in a team of pro-pilots, sharing costs... Many known unknowns with that oil slick... Get familiar with your team first, then a PPI of some form Is a good idea... Answer one question... why would you want to share a plane? Answer another question... What is that? That oil drip pan is not a real confidence builder. It’s not something that just happened yesterday. That isn’t a radial engine hiding under there... Get an answer to that... Enjoy the hunt... talk to each partner and ask... hey what is that oil leak, how long has that been going on? What gives? Worst case... engine needs an OH... go to the Continental web site for numbers... Ask the partners their thoughts on what’s coming expense wise... PP thoughts only, not in a partnership... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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