DENALI

Mooney Value.......in long term hibernation.

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Ok, so I ran across a Mooney that may or may not be a deal. Its a 1965 M20C 0360 A1D Lycoming engine 1860 hours. Total time on air frame 2880 hours.  Family lost interest or a family member or something but they as a whole haven't flown it in years. It has been indoor hangered since. There is an annual AD on Prop. Their last annual was in 1995,  and it was last flown in 2002. They regularly practiced pulling the prop through though. They are asking $14,500 Whats your guys opinions? Thanks

 

 

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Ok, so I ran across a Mooney that may or may not be a deal. Its a 1965 M20C 0360 A1D Lycoming engine 1860 hours. Total time on air frame 2880 hours.  Family lost interest or a family member or something but they as a whole haven't flown it in years. It has been indoor hangered since. There is an annual AD on Prop. Their last annual was in 1995,  and it was last flown in 2002. They regularly practiced pulling the prop through though. They are asking $14,500 Whats your guys opinions? Thanks
 
 
mooney1.jpg.0fb54ac46d2b21f82ba0768bff3f5472.jpg
mooney2.jpg.f44b29daa32837fa2ca6ab6d288b8d41.jpg
Be ready to spend some money.

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Engine, prop, avionics, hoses and fuel lines to start with. Instruments haven’t functioned in sixteen years. If the tanks aren’t leaking, the interior is good, the pucks are good and there are no corrosion surprises you still have some big bills to deal with. Even if they gave you the airplane for free, it is difficult to see how you can make out on this one.

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I'm sort of morbidly curious why on earth someone flew a plane seven years out of annual.

Ferry flight for maintenance that didn't result in a signature?

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53 minutes ago, DENALI said:

Ok, so I ran across a Mooney that may or may not be a deal. Its a 1965 M20C 0360 A1D Lycoming engine 1860 hours. Total time on air frame 2880 hours.  Family lost interest or a family member or something but they as a whole haven't flown it in years. It has been indoor hangered since. There is an annual AD on Prop. Their last annual was in 1995,  and it was last flown in 2002. They regularly practiced pulling the prop through though. They are asking $14,500 Whats your guys opinions? Thanks

If they give it to you for free, by the time it is in the shape you want it you would have spent far less just buying a flying example in the first place.

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you'd be able to buy a really good one for the amount it'll take to refurb this one.

engine, prop and tanks will be at-least 50 to 60k.  you could get lucky.  Aviation is def not for the smart, follow your heart

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42 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Oh. FWIW, unless it has been modified, that is a ‘66 or ‘67 model. The ‘65 has a little bump behind the spinner on the upper cowling which this one is missing.  

Jim

Jim, you're probably right, the '65 E had the bump, I'm not sure the C did as well.

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At a minimum you'd want a thorough inspection, which will be a bit of an investment in itself.   Fill it with fuel and see if it leaks anywhere.   Have the engine checked thoroughly, etc., etc.   Expect lots of problems with electronics (capacitors dried out from sitting, corrosion on connectors), replace all tires and tubes, etc., etc.

Price sounds high considering what it'll need for certain, and very high considering the potential risk.

 

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I own a 64c that I bought in airworthy condition.  It still cost me a ton of money to make it safe for my family to fly in. Airworthy does not mean safe.

They would have to give you this plane for free and then you should plan on 60k to make it right with an engine overhaul, avionics and the corrosion SB, all new hoses the list is truly endless....

Oh an good luck in finding a mechanic who is a craftsman.  They are slowly dying off.  Many are only skilled at removing and replacing black boxes.

Good luck !!

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Better off buying a corrosion free flying aircraft from a $ standpoint.  From an emotional standpoint if you really enjoy fixing stuff up more than flying then these older hangar queens(this one may be a king) can be really rewarding and fun.  

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So that is the bottom line.  Buy a plane that has been flying and has had service within last year.  Otherwise “free” is NOT really free.  I have been there.  Do NOT buy this plane unless $35-50k is available.  Tanks will leak.  Avionics will fail.  Engine will fail.  Brake and hydraulics, hoses, mags, vacuum.

This is a perfect parts donor plane.  Let it die so others might continue to live happy productive lives...

Cue Sawman.

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Look at it this way. 

  1. Are you good with a wrench and willing to get dirty?
  2. Do you know a mechanic that is willing to work with and supervise you?  Expect to pay him for his time to educated you.
  3. Do you expect to spend $40 to $60k in the next 2 years on the plane including purchase price?
  4. You will have a lot of gremlins to exterminate in the plane and they and their friends will return quiet often in the first couple of years.
  5. Get a mechanic to do a good pre-buy focusing on air-frame corrosion and critical airworthy issues.
  6. Expect the engine to be overhauled in the first couple of years after purchase.  You may get lucky and go longer or it could be much shorter.
  7. If everything is serviceable in the engine you could possibly go with a field overhaul for $15 to $18k.
  8. The AD on the prop is a pain but live with it for a few years.
  9. Expect to upgade avionics in the first few years as well.

Offer $10k +/- they are already in the hole just paying hangar fees for the past years it sat and basically that is what you are paying them for.  They are giving you the plane.

Do what is necessary to get a ferry permit and bring it to your hangar.  You will most likely want an individual hangar so you can work at your leisure and not bother others.  Plan on spending the first 4 to 6 months going though different items refreshing hoses, making sure contacts are clean etc.

Once you can get the annual signed off and it is airworthy fly it locally at first then  gradually go further.  Once you have put about 100 hours on the plane in the first year and you have competed your second annual with the plane then start looking at any upgrades you want to do i.e. radios, interior etc.

Food for thought:

To buy a quick build experimental air-frame you will be paying $30k to $60k no engine, interior or avionics etc. of any kind.

I say if the air-frame is solid go for it but do so with open eyes.  Save this majestic bird.

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This could be super interesting.  I say it depends a little on your mission.  If you are looking for something to hop into and start flying all over the country, this may not be a great match (the old adage...good, fast, cheap...pick one).  If you are prone to tinker, have a relationship with a helpful mechanic, and your timing is right, you could make this work.  I worry most about corrosion as that's the one thing that moves a plane to a scrap yard.  Everything else is straight forward-paint, engine, tanks, avionics-not saying cheap...just saying you can upgrade and fix most of those as you go.

You'd probably end up with more in the plane than you could sell it for.  We all have way more in our planes than what we'd get in resale anyway so join the club!

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Of course we'd all love to know the location or at least where you'd be storing it.  I respect that you probably want to tie the plane up before letting other know a lot about it so keep us posted!  Maybe one of us is nearby!

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If that plane were in excellent mechanical condition and in annual, it would likely draw less than $30,000. Whether it's a 1965 or a 2005, the cost of things like fuel tanks, engines and avionics pretty much remain the same. If you got it for free, it would be a gamble as to whether you came out on top. And if you're excited about a $14,000 M20C, my guess is that you do not have the budget to tackle the repairs that will likely come up. On a side note, you can get financing for as low as 4.15% these days over 20 years and seeing a payment of < $500/mo for a good airworthy F or J with that $14k as a downpayment is feasible. 

Are the tanks full of fuel? 

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12 minutes ago, Antares said:

If that plane were in excellent mechanical condition and in annual, it would likely draw less than $30,000. Whether it's a 1965 or a 2005, the cost of things like fuel tanks, engines and avionics pretty much remain the same. If you got it for free, it would be a gamble as to whether you came out on top. And if you're excited about a $14,000 M20C, my guess is that you do not have the budget to tackle the repairs that will likely come up. On a side note, you can get financing for as low as 4.15% these days over 20 years and seeing a payment of < $500/mo for a good airworthy F or J with that $14k as a downpayment is feasible. 

Are the tanks full of fuel? 

Very true, but none of us will come out on top when we finally sell our beloved airplanes especially if you have made any improvements.  Spending more money now just saves you from spending more money later and you get to fly sooner.

We do what we do because we love it.  It is our hobby, our passion or whatever.  We use our planes for fun, transportation and agony if I wanted an investment to make money on I would not have bought a plane.  Had I invested the initial $25k of my E (which I pulled from investments) and the $55k in the F and the additional $ since then for maintenance and upgrades I would be in much better shape financially but I would have had to deal with TSA more, driven more and impressed a few less people over the last 8 years.

I for one think it is doable (if the air-frame is solid) for someone who is willing to work and has a mechanic willing to work with them.  I'm not interested in doing something like this but for someone who is go for it and save another plane from the scrap yard.  However, like I said go in with your eyes open and knowing what to expect.  You will have some agony, blood, sweat and tears though the process.   We all do unless you are in a position where you simply write a check for everything and even then it hurts when you have to put too many 0s on that check.

 

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Grab an A&P or IA and look it over, focus on the big ticket items. I purchased a 65 E that hadn’t seen much action and rolled the dice on it, I had 10k cash sitting and waiting on the known items, ended up being just north of 12k. Would I do it again? Sure, why not, I like doing mechanical work and on an airplane there is always something that can use some attention. There have been several planes on here that have been resurrected, and if you can do most of the labor under the supervision of an A&P i’d say go for it.

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Do you want to fly or do you want a plane to work on?    Even if you buy a flying plane, there is still a fair amount of maintenance.   If you buy this one and spend a year working on it, it might be a good deal.   When was the cam last replaced?   Also there may be an AD on the oil pump.  Have about $10K in the bank after the purchase.  fix it fly it fix it

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2 hours ago, Yetti said:

 Have about $10K in the bank after the purchase.  fix it fly it fix it

I'd say that much at a bare minimum.   Cheap airplanes are not an inexpensive proposition given the risks of all the different areas where they may need attention.   This one has a couple of decades of deferred maintenance and ADs to catch up on, and that's just the expected stuff.

I bought a cheap airplane with the plan going in that it was going to take a lot of time and attention and $$.   Doing sufficient homework ahead of time to buy the right cheap airplane that minimizes the risk can make it fun, but if you don't go in with sufficient $$ to clear whatever hurdles come up it can turn into an albatross in a hurry.   In my case it's worked out nicely but not without some adventures along the way.

All that said, this one could potentially be polished into a gem.   It's been in a hangar, which is a plus, and might be a fun project for the right person if inspections indicate it's basically solid.   The risks just have to be weighed and if the worst-   or bad-case scenarios are not palatable then it should be passed over.   If one just wants an inexpensive airplane to fly around with, then something that has been flown and maintained is likely a much better bet.

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As long as the spar checks out if you think about it, even planes that are flown an average amount each year still spend 8,660 a year in the hanger.

To the OP check in the wheel wells for corrosion and then have the spar checked out.  Engines are a crapshoot.

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If you've got $60K or $70K disposable cash to spend on an airplane but want to restore one from scratch for the fun of it, then this might be a good candidate. But if you've got $20K to spend on an airplane and really want a Mooney... run away from this one. 

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I personally wouldn’t be interested due to the history, but if I were, the paint job would probably make me walk away.  I usually am a function over form guy, but for my taste, that paint job is hideous.

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I have rehabilitated several planes like this and had a BLAST doing it every time.  It's only money (and time) after all.

Edited by pmccand
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