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Question Regarding Aileron Control Input Force


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Several weeks ago, I was Googling M20 reports/evaluation etc and found a series of reviews ( C, E and F) and associated performance comparisons. Linked is the E model evaluation.

http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/m20e.html

 Towards the end of the report, I noted the excerpt below:

“Another negative to mention on the E model we flew for this report are the poor handling qualities in roll, but this complaint is for airplanes built prior to 1965 only. Specifically, pre'65 Mooneys all had ailerons that were "curved" on the bottom surface. These curved ailerons resulted in very high roll forces. The test pilot term for this is "high breakout forces". Roll rates with these curved ailerons are good---once the ailerons are displaced, the airplane rolls crisply and quickly. However, the forces required on the control wheel to get these roll rates are extremely high.”

There’s a lot of really good info in this series of evaluations, for some one like me researching their buying options, but I keep reminding myself of this noted issue.  I’m curious from those of you that have significant time in and/or owned both pre and post 1965 M20’s how significant the “poor handling qualities” referenced above really are.  Jeff

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Jeff,

 

those MAPA reports made it easy to purchase a 1965 M20C in Y2K....  I didn’t see the name Bob Kromer on there...

1965 was a remarkable year...

Up to that point Mooneys got a few updates every now and then...  in 65 they got many small updates all at once... Some small and some more visual...

In the end... the planes are 50years old.  It is more important to see how well they have been kept and updated...

My 65C had the rectangular windows, updated fuel separator under the cockpit, improved fasteners around the cowl... and a whole bunch of other small things.... like full rudder throw....

In later years, the rudder got extended...

Search for the Mooney timeline around here... it is a fun read.... in chart form.

Mr. Kromer is one of the most knowledgeable Mooney pilots around.  His experience comes from working as a test pilot for Mooney and has grown since then.

when reading the article try to keep everything in perspective... the opportunity to upgrade individual parts is interesting when they come up...  Bob spent a few lines on adding shoulder belts too...

You wouldn’t change your decision making very much when purchasing a Mooney.  But, adding some of these ‘upgrades’ along the way makes more sense...

So in a side by side comparison... Bob Kromer can tell the difference...  :)

It takes really getting to know your Mooney to be able to tell some of the sublties....

Having a short rudder, you run out of rudder in really strong cross winds... instead of super strong cross winds....

PP thoughts only, not a test pilot for Mooney.

Best regards,

-a-

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I have a ‘64 that had the updated ailerons installed in ‘65.  They are required for PC systems, so many were upgraded.  I have a friend with a ‘63 and have not noted that it is much stiffer in roll.  That said, Mooney’s tend to feel heavier in roll than many other aircraft, they also have much less travel of the yoke to achieve full roll rate.  Basically, the force required to move the yoke is more than many other competitive aircraft, but that does not mean that it does not have adequate authority.  I would argue that in IFR conditions it is even beneficial.  Another thing is that aircraft with the PC will have heavy roll forces when the PC is engaged and even for a few seconds after it is released, while the system bleeds down.  Individual rigging and care plays into this as well.   Best bet is to fly one.  Most people are not disappointed, no matter what the vintage.

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I trained in an old worn out Cessna 172 and Piper 140 and that was one of the first things I noticed after purchase. The roll inputs feel heavier and more precise in the Mooney, but on the other hand in comparison flying the 172 felt like flying a dishrag. 

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the older curved ailerons have much higher force required to deflect. its like the autopilot is still engaged and you're fighting it.  Not terrible but not easy, either.  Contrast that to a Bonanza, which is a fingertip airplane, and only one finger at that.

Edited by jetdriven
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Thanks for the inputs. @carusoam Fair point, at nearly 50yrs old, there are probably more important things to worry about. I appreciate the input and will search for the timeline.

2 hours ago, Bartman said:

 but on the other hand in comparison flying the 172 felt like flying a dishrag. 

  I had to to chuckle at the dishrag comment!!

@bluehighwayflyer thanks, I didn’t think about comparison to the J’s so that’s a great point of reference.

 @takair I had a similar thought in that flight in actual IFR/IMC may actual benefit from heavier controls.  @jetdriven thanks for the context.  My Tiger is nearly not even finger tip pressure to move the ailerons, so that may take some getting use to. 

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