Moving to a twin, so the Mooney has to go...

[BDPetersen]

Not to put you into 310 advise overload, I’m sure you’ve dove your homework, it should be noted that TAS Aviation Defiance OH ( Tony  Saxton) is the go to for 310 expertise. Had their underwing exhaust put on my F, and they discovered it needed a side brace kit as well. If you are inclined to participate in your maintenance, I have the gear rigging tool(s) and a swell VHS video on how to “Rig It Right”. 

[triple8s]

On July 18, 2018 at 6:26 PM, M20Doc said:

Most sane people wouldn’t own one big bore Continental engine let alone 2 of them.  Something with a pair of Lycoming engines would make more sense in my opinion.

Clarence

Not all 310's have the BB TCM's a very few have A pair of Big turbo Lycs hangin on them. Think it was done by Riley.

[Guitarmaster]

10 hours ago, BDPetersen said:

Not to put you into 310 advise overload, I’m sure you’ve dove your homework, it should be noted that TAS Aviation Defiance OH ( Tony  Saxton) is the go to for 310 expertise. Had their underwing exhaust put on my F, and they discovered it needed a side brace kit as well. If you are inclined to participate in your maintenance, I have the gear rigging tool(s) and a swell VHS video on how to “Rig It Right”. 

I do most of my maintenance under the supervision of an IA.  Would love to see the video, but I don't have a VHS player.  Maybe the local middle school has one?
I know for a fact this plane does NOT have the side brace kit.  I also know there is no cracking.  Would you consider the side-brace kit a must or nice to have?

[Steve65E-NC]

A friend had a C-310.  He said the maintenance costs ate him alive. Great looking aircraft. 

[KLRDMD]

2 hours ago, Guitarmaster said:

Would you consider the side-brace kit a must or nice to have?

No personal experience but I know a couple of people with 310s and they say the the kit should be mandatory.

[BDPetersen]

Side brace kit is on an as needed basis, I think. Only had one side done on my F. Although too late  is too late. PM me and I’ll tell my nose gear fail story. (Sorry Mooney folks)

[DaV8or]

On 7/18/2018 at 7:38 PM, Hank said:

Enjoy the bumblebee! Sorry about your coming fuel bills . . . . .

...and maintenance bills.

[KLRDMD]

10 hours ago, DaV8or said:

...and maintenance bills.

Those that have never owned a twin tend to greatly overestimate true expenses, mostly out of ignorance or being willing to believe old wive's tales.

That's fine with me, it keeps prices on really capable airplanes really low.

[HRM]

On 7/18/2018 at 1:55 AM, Guitarmaster said:

...and the added 'insurance' of the second engine...

You didn't get scared by @chrixxer's recent fun, did you?

[chrixxer]

Those that have never owned a twin tend to greatly overestimate true expenses, mostly out of ignorance or being willing to believe old wive's tales.
That's fine with me, it keeps prices on really capable airplanes really low.

The owner of the flight school where I did my PPL and my Mooney transition training (they have an M20B) has an Apache they use for MEL, and he's been steeped in aviation for forever. He counseled, when I discussed (after my second SEL engine out in a year), at least an Apache, would be "3x the maintenance cost" of a Mooney. FWIW.


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[KLRDMD]

17 minutes ago, chrixxer said:

The owner of the flight school where I did my PPL and my Mooney transition training (they have an M20B) has an Apache they use for MEL, and he's been steeped in aviation for forever. He counseled, when I discussed (after my second SEL engine out in a year), at least an Apache, would be "3x the maintenance cost" of a Mooney. FWIW.

 

Maybe things are different in a flight school environment or with an Apache specifically (those things are OLD) but from personal experience owning four Mooneys and four twins, that's not the case.

The twins I've owned run +/- 50% more per year than the Mooneys. And the twins are SO much more capable. My current twin has just about twice the useful load and twice the payload of my last Mooney, 50% more seats, 300% more baggage storage area and weight & air conditioning. It fits in the same hangar and database updates are identical for identically installed equipment.

Oil changes are twice as much, the annual was 50% more and insurance is 50% more this year only because I have a non-equity partner that didn't even have a multi certificate when I put him on the insurance. Next year it will go down to roughly the price of what the Mooney was. I sold the Mooney for the same amount I paid for the Baron so that was a wash. 

I fly over the mountains pretty much every flight and fly over the Sea of Cortez regularly. That second engine is worth the expense at least to me. Maybe after your next engine failure you'll decide a twin is worth the expense to you too 

[jetdriven]

Does all that include engine and prop reserves, or the same thing, 70$/hour of depreciation for engines, props, and accessories vs. 35$?

[KLRDMD]

2 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Does all that include engine and prop reserves, or the same thing, 70$/hour of depreciation for engines, props, and accessories vs. 35$?

I charge my non-equity partner 50% of "fixed" expenses per month ($725), he pays his own fuel and $45/hour to cover engine, airframe and prop depreciation on the Baron where he was paying $525/mo as 50% of fixed expenses, fuel and $30/hour in the Mooney. All in it costs him (and me) about 50% more per year to fly the Baron than the Mooney as I have written many, many times on this board. 

Lots of people want to believe differently but those are my actual, hard numbers. His fixed monthly expenses will go down at insurance renewal too.

[jetdriven]

17 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

I charge my non-equity partner 50% of "fixed" expenses per month ($725), he pays his own fuel and $45/hour to cover engine, airframe and prop depreciation on the Baron where he was paying $525/mo as 50% of fixed expenses, fuel and $30/hour in the Mooney. All in it costs him (and me) about 50% more per year to fly the Baron than the Mooney as I have written many, many times on this board. 

Lots of people want to believe differently but those are my actual, hard numbers. His fixed monthly expenses will go down at insurance renewal too.

I have t ask how a twin engine airplane, with bigger engines at that, only takes 50% more engine and prop reserves than a single. I get that the insurance or annuals or even gas may not be double, but the engine and prop overhaul reserve certainly has to..

[Marauder]

I have t ask how a twin engine airplane, with bigger engines at that, only takes 50% more engine and prop reserves than a single. I get that the insurance or annuals or even gas may not be double, but the engine and prop overhaul reserve certainly has to..

I think his ownership model is to dump them before that happens.


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[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

I have t ask how a twin engine airplane, with bigger engines at that, only takes 50% more engine and prop reserves than a single. I get that the insurance or annuals or even gas may not be double, but the engine and prop overhaul reserve certainly has to..

AOPA's vRef lists depreciation on a 1985 Mooney 231 as $3.82/hour on the airframe and $24.00/hour on the engine. That's $27.82 that I rounded up to $30.

AOPA's vRef lists depreciation on a 1964 Baron 55 as $1.27/hour on the airframe and $21.00/hour on each engine. That's $43.27 that I rounded up to $45.

EVERYTHING in aviation is a best guess estimate including the monthly amount I calculated as fixed expenses. After 25 years of doing this, in my experience it all works out close enough in the end.

[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

I think his ownership model is to dump them before that happens.

 

The market is very efficient. A buyer will not pay the same amount for the same airplane that has 200-500 more hours on it when I sell it than when I bought it. All is taken into account.

[carusoam]

Jim, On the topic of sales tax...

In some states the tax due is based on the difference in the sales price of two machines...

• the one you are selling...
• the one you are buying...

So, selling a plane and buying another at near the same price... nets very little in terms of sales tax...

Selling an M20C and buying an M20R won’t have the same benefit as the like for like change....

Consult your tax guy, selling the J to buy an O might be close enough.... depending on your situation...  

as usual, I’m still a PP, not a tax guy...

Best regards,

-a-

[KLRDMD]

3 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Yes, that is the case here in Florida even, but only in the case of direct trades. Not like kind exchanges, as is contemplated by the Internal Revenue Code.  Direct trades are much harder to orchestrate, especially at retail prices on both sides of the equation.  

Not really. About half of the 15 airplanes I've owned I traded.

[carusoam]

In NJ... There was a time frame that needed to be met. The buying and selling didn’t need to be related to each other... like trading in a plane to get the next one at AAA...   

But that would definitely clean up the record...  

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

NJ has some good quirks...

No excise tax on automobiles or planes...

Can lead to owning too many machines... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

6 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

You are lucky there in NJ, Anthony. At least from this tax perspective, if no other. That is much more like the like kind exchange provision of the IRC that I referenced. Here in a Florida it is all about how much money changes hands in a single transaction. That is the amount upon which sales and use taxes are due and owing. 

Jim

But there is no tax due each time you receive a paycheck at work. I'll make that trade! You sell and buy one plane each, I'll pay your sales tax, and you refund my state income tax every two weeks until I retire.  

[chrixxer]

On 7/18/2018 at 6:02 AM, steingar said:

You're certain about the price? $59,871?  Not $59872?

Offer $59,870. Meet in the middle. Use the savings to buy half a Coke at the vending machine.

[chrixxer]

On 7/21/2018 at 4:36 AM, BDPetersen said:

a swell VHS video on how to “Rig It Right”. 

Adapters to convert that to a digital format are like $40 (e.g. https://www.amazon.com/Diamond-VC500-Capture-Software-Convert/dp/B000VM60I8). Just saying. 

[RobertGary1]

On 7/19/2018 at 4:59 PM, exM20K said:

This topic brings back memories... in the early 90’s I flew a rather rough C310Q.  It was a blast to fly, and I’d expected that by now it had been parted out. Nope   N5LH  is still turning dead dinosaurs into beautiful noise.  Finding it still active on flightaware made my day.

 

-dan

The 310 I used to fly (N1110L) has been de-registered and is now a lowly 172.

 

-Robert