Sandman993 Posted December 2, 2020 Report Share Posted December 2, 2020 Words of wisdom from carusoam... however, it begs the question, how many old c’s are willing to spend near 100% of their plane value to achieve a 2 axis ap that may only work on one? and that’s I think what the math looks like for garboon’s bean counters. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 2, 2020 Report Share Posted December 2, 2020 How many old Cs are forever-planes..? This is where expensive avionics makes sense... GTNs and soon to be GFC500s and a few aspens and Dynons.... have shown up on SB panels... Many MSers start with a lower cost Mooney while aviation is new to them... then they find out how GA flying actually meets and exceeds their expectations... They have a few choices... sell the old Gal... or update... Changing planes comes with a load of first year discomfort... There are plenty of M20C owners in their 20+ year of ownership... even at 10+ years of ownership... Those are the prime candidates for such an expensive upgrade... So... if you are young and just blew your last AMUs on a cool M20C... and getting an AP looks near impossible... I hear you! Been there... Done that... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skates97 Posted December 2, 2020 Report Share Posted December 2, 2020 2 hours ago, cliffy said: Well Get it in there for the benefit of the rest of us!! :-) 2 hours ago, McMooney said: Take one for the team 8) I'm happy to get in there and take one for the team. I just need Garmin to approve it for my 1965 D. 2 hours ago, Sandman993 said: You’ll need two g-5’s to get everything out of the gfc. I was told 2 g-5’s were about $10,000 fly away. Does that jive with your numbers? The numbers are a bit fuzzy... I paid $5255 for the dual G5's and a flush mount plate from Chase, @Avionics Source back in August. I also had to buy the GAD13 and connector kit ($180) and a C307PS OAT Sensor ($90) plus the CANBUS wire, breakers, etc... I was installing a GNC355 and PMA 450B at the same time so not sure what the breakdown would be of all the miscellaneous stuff that was needed. Say maybe $6k in parts/equipment for the dual G5's? I did the installation myself so tack on whatever the labor would be, but $10k is probably fair. There are others that have had installs done that could give better numbers for complete install. 2 hours ago, carusoam said: How many old Cs are forever-planes..? This is where expensive avionics makes sense... GTNs and soon to be GFC500s and a few aspens and Dynons.... have shown up on SB panels... Many MSers start with a lower cost Mooney while aviation is new to them... then they find out how GA flying actually meets and exceeds their expectations... They have a few choices... sell the old Gal... or update... Changing planes comes with a load of first year discomfort... There are plenty of M20C owners in their 20+ year of ownership... even at 10+ years of ownership... Those are the prime candidates for such an expensive upgrade... So... if you are young and just blew your last AMUs on a cool M20C... and getting an AP looks near impossible... I hear you! Been there... Done that... Best regards, -a- Mine isn't a C but is a close cousin as a D and is a forever plane. Even though I had less than 60 hours when I bought it, I knew what I wanted, but there was also what I could afford. I started four years ago with a VFR only plane with no autopilot (what I could afford at the time). It wasn't fancy but "had good bones" and had been well cared for. Over the past year plus I've been collecting the pieces for the panel and finally did the work this summer. I don't know what it would have cost to pay someone to do it, but a rough guess is that if I had to pay someone then I would have easily spent as much for all the upgrades as I did for the purchase. When an AP is approved I will gladly spend the money to put the AP in. Would I change the way I went about it? Nope! For four years I have been blessed to own a plane and fly it all over the country making memories for a lifetime. I have spent the money on upgrades when I had it to spend and now have a plane that I know inside and out which is equipped the way I want (minus the AP I am still waiting to be approved). It's definitely more expensive than if I had bought one someone else upgraded, but again it was what I could afford, and I'll take the memories made, you can't put a price on them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandman993 Posted December 2, 2020 Report Share Posted December 2, 2020 3 hours ago, carusoam said: How many old Cs are forever-planes..? This is where expensive avionics makes sense... GTNs and soon to be GFC500s and a few aspens and Dynons.... have shown up on SB panels... Many MSers start with a lower cost Mooney while aviation is new to them... then they find out how GA flying actually meets and exceeds their expectations... They have a few choices... sell the old Gal... or update... Changing planes comes with a load of first year discomfort... There are plenty of M20C owners in their 20+ year of ownership... even at 10+ years of ownership... Those are the prime candidates for such an expensive upgrade... So... if you are young and just blew your last AMUs on a cool M20C... and getting an AP looks near impossible... I hear you! Been there... Done that... Best regards, -a- You shot your wad on a C back when you was a pup? I think it’s a cheek squeeze for about everyone when they buy a new ship. Even moving up. You just buy the most you can or cannot afford. But one thing is almost certain, the first year ownership of a used aircraft is going to make one uncomfortable. And if you’re picky, it’s like your bank account has a bad case of termites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Posted December 2, 2020 Report Share Posted December 2, 2020 Ok.....I can give some facts...not speculation. I am going to pick my E model up from Garmin on Friday...day after tomorrow. The STC is signed and it will be switched back to certified status by Friday. I also know that they have an early C model slated for certification starting in January. Be patient....it is coming....or keep speculating. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJMac Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, cliffy said: And no one has asked them WHY? they stop at 65? I know if I was talking to them I would ask WHY The early SBs had curved ailerons that require a different (higher I believe) control force input. I'm sure there is more but you can see that curve on the bottom of them. Edited December 3, 2020 by NJMac 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navi Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 >>>But one thing is almost certain, the first year ownership of a used aircraft is going to make one uncomfortable. And if you’re picky, it’s like your bank account has a bad case of termites. Absolutely TRUE THAT! An unforgettable experience.. ! (for a number of reasons.. all known to this group.. ) Nav Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 53 minutes ago, NJMac said: The early SBs had curved ailerons that require a different (higher I believe) control force input. I'm sure there is more but you can see that curve on the bottom of them. I speculated on just this item some time ago. Many don't know the early ones with the "undercambered" ( the correct terminology) airfoil ailerons had higher control forces to displace the surface, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 To add fuel to the fire- I am of the opinion that one could mount the servos under the radio shelf in the back and attach to the rudder and elevator control rods and have a perfectly controllable A/P experience relying on the interconnect spring for the ailerons for roll control. The installation would be a breeze, Just two connecting rods. In the event that the interconnect spring breaks the airplane is still controllable and not in an way a safety hazard. I suspect it would fly just fine with rudder and elevator control and one could just disconnect the A/P in that event. Try flying with just the rudder pedals sometime using the control wheel or trim just for pitch, Its easy and flies well. Turns well also. This gets rid of the inter-model differences of the ailerons and it would be a much easier install. I'd love to try it. Go experimental for the testing. It would be fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pirate Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 6 hours ago, Sandman993 said: You’ll need two g-5’s to get everything out of the gfc. I was told 2 g-5’s were about $10,000 fly away. Does that jive with your numbers? For price comparison this past July I had 2 G5’s the 29 and 13 installed for $9300 in the Chicago area. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 (edited) IIRC someone mentioned something BIG coming before the end of Dec 2020 (I can't find it now hence the IIRC) SO where are we ? 29 days and counting :-) All I want for Christmas are my ??? Edited December 3, 2020 by cliffy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 Certification of the short bodys is pretty good news to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 Wes, what year is your E? Looking forward to your pirep... I know it will probably be delayed for some time... I’d be testing mine for a few thousand miles non-stop... lots of distant cities to be visited... Cliffy, great input as always... it looks like the aileron design and the existing Brittain Servo mounts that came in 65... are the main differences... of course, rectangular Windows may have something to do with it... Serious question... How much effort would it take to take parts from an AF donor plane..? (AF=AlanFox....) Sand, Early in life there are tough financial decisions that can go awry... first car, first house, first child, first plane... fortunately, these ordinary things tend to settle out over time... (god bless you if you have a challenge with child health...) Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 The parts fit fine You need to drill the servo mount hole (1) in the spar directly in line to pull tangent to the arc of the bellcrank or you will wear a hole in the vacuum diaphragm. Just bellcrank extensions and chains and the servo. Now making it legal is another story Mine has a S/N approval for my airplane written on the STC even back then. There's enough muscle to move the early ailerons effectively I guess business models now a days escape me as I have no idea what the new owners of Brittian are doing when they have perfectly good A/Ps available already certified and a big market just waiting. No idea how you make a business like that work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 No new owners for Brittain... Second generation not as strong as the Dad... Nothing bad meant towards Cecilia.... Dad was incredibly strong! Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 I thought it was sold a while back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 I could always be mistaken... Unfortunately, Memory isn’t my strong suit... -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baker Avionics Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 3 hours ago, cliffy said: IIRC someone mentioned something BIG coming before the end of Dec 2020 (I can't find it now hence the IIRC) SO where are we ? 29 days and counting :-) All I want for Christmas are my ??? That was me actually cliffy. From what I see still something is going be big for us here soon. From what I have been told by "Brand X", it should be within the next 2 weeks. I see the installation of the servos already in drawing form and where it included in the current coverages of installation manuals. Let's hope it comes true! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 THX ALL I want for Xmas is my? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJMac Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 4 hours ago, Baker Avionics said: That was me actually cliffy. From what I see still something is going be big for us here soon. From what I have been told by "Brand X", it should be within the next 2 weeks. I see the installation of the servos already in drawing form and where it included in the current coverages of installation manuals. Let's hope it comes true! Are you saying 2 weeks for trutrak or Garmin short bodies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmo Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 I vote Dynon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 Mine is a 1966 E. It is finished. Test flights finished. Certification finished. Conformity finished. STC signed. Experimental status switched back to certified status tomorrow. The PMA lag will be the only hurdle left for customers. I'll be playing GFC500 this weekend...weather permitting. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpaul Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 21 hours ago, LANCECASPER said: The early model Mooney owners' lives may be passing them by, but it's not their fault. C, D, E, F and G owners are waiting for either the GFC500 or the TruTrak (Aerocruze 100) to be to be certified. Well, the F & G has been completed and the install kits are available. I flew the F from the Garmin facilities back mid-October. As @Wessaid the C,D,E 65 and newer is complete, and if the production stays consistent, the PMAd install kits will be available two weeks after certification. The rest start certification in January, and given my experience working with Garmin as one of the certification platforms, the pre 65s should be complete in June/July. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 I vote Dynon I didn’t realize they had a autopilot certified for Mooneys? ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmo Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 1 minute ago, ArtVandelay said: I didn’t realize they had a autopilot certified for Mooneys? That's why I'm voting on what I hope will happen in two weeks, not what was promised to happen 2 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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