TruTrak Autopilot Pre Order's / Status Update

[Navi]

54 minutes ago, Jesse Saint said:

Come on, guys. It wasn’t a lie. There wasn’t even deceit involved. They had every intention of making those projections, but it just didn’t happen. There were delays in the finalized design and certification of the 180/182/185 and the PA-32’s, coupled with the need to do some redesign on the Mooney install following flight testing. It will get done. Hopefully the STC approval process will happen faster than with the above-mentioned models, which were supposed to take 4 weeks and took 4+ months. 

Jeeezzzeee… Tough crowd here... (!)

Guys, liars have a basic instinct, they lie to gain something or to CYA.. Neither is present here. Nothing to gain. No need to get "ahead" of the competition. There isn't any. TT are working away at their own market, and if think the occasional Trio purchase is of a concern to them, you are dreaming in colour.

What may have been said last year was probably based on the best information available at the time, and everyone is anxious to hear what they want to hear.. STC approvals  are at best, a moving target.

I do question the wisdom of anyone making substantial decisions on what "may" happen, or "when" it will happen. Such reasoning is basically unsound. ..

You can cuff anyone here in this sentence, Garmin, TT Trio, Aspen… pick one...  There are design issues, compatibility, financing, shipping, employee issues, parts supply,  etc,, etc., and THEN there is the FAA.  We have Transport Canada here... so no safe haven..

I don't have a Mooney, yet..  But I have reason to believe it is next in line, as TT resources are available. (it is also the next "logical" choice regardless) Hopefully now that the Cessnas are shipping, Zach will be able to devote more time to it now and get it done..  Remember they are the new kids to the FAA, and they have nowhere near the finances or the "people in place" that Garmin and Honeywell have.. I have owned and operated small businesses, and have the  many "hats" you have to wear..

 My humble offering,  FWIW...   :)

 

 

[Navi]

15 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Sales 101... for those guys that haven’t done this before....

When selling machines or their parts... it takes skill to under promise and over deliver...  UPOD.

The stronger your skills, the more accurate your promises will be... customers really appreciate this.

If you over promise or under deliver, like in this case... you get called a liar...   OPUD.

First lesson in machine sales... customers are always asking what’s next... mostly because they don’t want to buy yesterday’s technology when tommorow’s might be right around the corner.   The key word here is SWAT.... Sell What’s Available Today.

People lie, usually with the intent to deceive... to steal/rob from somebody... there was no crime in this case so “lie” May be too strong... but this is really a case of disappointingly poor salesmanship... enough to be angry about...

Keep in mind, If you OPUD, you will probably be called a liar...

Anyone sitting front seat of an airliner, with a mechanical or weather challenge, has to make promises to those people in the back...  you will probably be thinking UPOD just before delivering the news to the passengers...

Keep this in mind when you are telling passengers how great GA is... it is really easy to over promise something, following it up with a high level of risks... to try to make up for the first mistake...

Human error...  sales, like flying, is something that gets learned...

Just because you are good in one area, doesn’t make you naturally good in another area...   some people do learn quicker than others...

 

Now...

For anyone buying a piece of equipment for their airplane.... we have learned this same lesson year after year...

1) waiting for GPS to be available... took forever...

2) waiting for GPS to handle approaches.... took forever and cost another 20amu...

3) waiting for GPS to handle vertical control for approaches... took more time and waas cost a few more AMUs...

4) Say you had a G1000, and big G said to you... Waas upgrades will be available in a year... at moderate costs.... then you find out a major snafu occurs... the economy slides, development money dries up, and you get stuck between The plane builder, the nav box builder, and the economy...

5) In the end... you are still PIC when it comes to your wallet...  you probably Won’t...

• Buy the A model of anything... the Bravo is much better... or the L model... without another engine option, like we have today...
• Hold off on buying something, until that new device is available....
• Buy something, expecting new technology to make it useable...

If you do... you are taking on a known risk...  

6) There is clearly a lot at stake when it comes to autopilots...  manufacturing and certification takes many different players, and a few extra unplanned AMUs...

Consider this a learning experience...

You will recognize UPOD/OPUD/SWAT  challenges each time a new company, or new product, or new sales guy comes along... 

This probably won’t make you feel better...  but it does explain how avionics and other technology coming to market takes forever to end up in your plane...

7) Being first in your neighborhood to buy something is called being on the leading edge...   being first to find the shortcomings of an OPUD... you are now on the bleeding edge...

 

It turns out you all know these case studies...  did you ever get drawn in?

Best regards,

-a-

Well stated Sir...

And on top of all this, your best business plans, --  production, marketing, staff, design, whatever...  just plain get trashed... from a direction you never even new existed...

Be gentle, I have a T-shirt for this one... 

Nav

 

Edited April 3, 2019 by Navi

[MIm20c]

Good news for those that have Aspen displays. Normally Aspen charges $2k to unlock the ability to control AP functions (stec, BK, etc). Apparently TT is doing the work for the interface so the unlock is not required. This info is second hand from Aspen so no guarantees or time lines. 

[David_H]

Calling TT lairs may indeed be a little harsh. Anyone that's ever worked in sales knows the risks involved with over promising or trying to sell vapor-ware. It rarely ends well. That said, this thread has been going on for some time now. Some indirect deceit (best case) was likely allowed to continue on some level. TT being completely unaware of expectations being set in the field would be even more alarming. Who's at fault for them not delivering is anyone's guess. The avionics guys would have very little to gain so I doubt it was their doing. I would certainly hope not anyway.

I personally would like to see TT succeed. However, I can't say I feel the same about TT now as I did a year ago. They seemed to have lost something during the past year and I don't think the FAA is to blame.

It really looks a lot like TT has been working hard to position itself for a buyout by Honeywell. In my opinion, TT as a company would hold very little to no value if that happens.

[DustinNwind]

For everyone that is saying it wasn't a lie - this was a blatant lie as they said they are waiting on paperwork back from FAA.. they haven't even submitted paperwork to the FAA from my conversation yesterday. "We have been focusing on the Cessna line and now we will start on the Mooney".

Hey Navi, tough crowd in here because a lot of folks have been given false information. Go buy a plane and get lied to the better part of a year. When you have skin in the game and own a plane you'll understand - might be better to be a spectator in the mean time. 

[David_H]

20 minutes ago, DustinNwind said:

For everyone that is saying it wasn't a lie - this was a blatant lie as they said they are waiting on paperwork back from FAA.. they haven't even submitted paperwork to the FAA from my conversation yesterday. "We have been focusing on the Cessna line and now we will start on the Mooney".

It wouldn't change things... but it would indeed be interesting to hear where the "Waiting on the FAA due to the government shutdown" story originated. We'll likely never really know though.

When I read "Delay due to the government shutdown" I said to myself "yeah sure" and lost hope about having any idea on when TT would deliver at that point.

[MBDiagMan]

4 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'd say "lie" is a bit strong for this situation. As anyone knows who's been in this business and had to deal with FAA approvals, there are just no guarantees. The only products that come out "on time" are the one's no one knew about. A business can either err on the optimistic side or on the pessimistic side. And pessimists don't even participate in this business. I'd bet that Cory was out selling the story exactly as he was under orders from management, to say. I'm also sure that after continued missed deadlines and committed dates, it was becoming a more and more difficult story to tell, and he probably left of his own accord. It's a sad situation non-the-less, but I certainly wouldn't put the blame entirely on TruTrak. I also wouldn't make an airplane purchase based on promises of things "coming soon!"

Very well put Paul.  I am indeed frustrated, but although I planned on the TruTrak being the obvious choice and thought that within a few months after purchase it would be equipped with an AP, I didn’t base my purchase decision on it.  My frustration comes from the fact if I had not been so convinced that it would be available in the foreseeable future I would have done something different and already have something installed.

You are correct, I should not have used the word lie and I offer my apologies to all it may concern.  When I read that TT had not submitted the paperwork, but were implying it was in the works, it sounded like a lie to me.  I will back off, eat crow and wait for the facts to bubble up.

[Jeev]

Guys - 

I am just as frustrated as you but do not think people were lied to, I can definitely see both sides of this and do take some responsibility for just going along for the ride and being overly optimistic, I will not post updates until I know for a fact we have certification. When I started this thread I was excited both from the perspective of a Mooney owner (at the time) a retailer that could bring this tech to fellow owners and I apologize if I added to the hype and now the disappointment.  Since then I have received and posted many updates form TT stating different issues and delays mostly from Corey who has now moved on form the company, at no time did I ever feel like they were deceiving or lying to me.  They were at times disorganized but so are many companies of their size going through growing pains.  The bottom line is that no other company has brought a similar priced and featured autopilot to the certified market.  While the rollout has been far form perfect with upset customers and deadlines that have definitely NOT been met nobody is closer to a certified $5000 autopilot for Mooneys and I am still excited about that.

@carusoam articulated the situation very well but I understand that does not solve the immediate problem of people wanting the product and me being able to sell it to them.  All I can tell you is that we have many satisfied Piper & Cessna customers and have had nothing but great experiences on the technical side of dealing with TT and feel confident that when the final Mooney kit is out it will be a similar experience.

Fly safe and have a great rest of the week everyone.

Sanjeev

[Navi]

29 minutes ago, DustinNwind said:

For everyone that is saying it wasn't a lie - this was a blatant lie as they said they are waiting on paperwork back from FAA.. they haven't even submitted paperwork to the FAA from my conversation yesterday. "We have been focusing on the Cessna line and now we will start on the Mooney".

Hey Navi, tough crowd in here because a lot of folks have been given false information. Go buy a plane and get lied to the better part of a year. When you have skin in the game and own a plane you'll understand - might be better to be a spectator in the mean time. 

Hey Dustin..

Hold on sir..  I have a plane, my second, owned one since 2003.  I have been licensed to push these things around the sky for almost 40 years..  I have a ton of "skin in the game" and been around long enough to feel some of it worn thin. Being a spectator now is not an option, I am in far too deep. I am now waiting for the TT<>Aspen interface, hopefully will happen before my old noisy DG craps out. So I am waiting like you..

I have no (and never had) any connection to any Aviation related company, but after 45 years as a small business owner I guess I am a bit more sympathetic to the challenges owning and operating a small business. So be it.. guilty...

I ordered and paid for my TruTrak in Nov 2017 (caught the sale) , waited and waited and finally got it in March 2018, 5 months later.  Shipped the same day TT got the STC document . Was never lied to, knew it was in the FAA hands all that time. They expected (and were told) a 5 week turnaround with the STC, but it was not to be. The Vizion was "approved" in December 2017, but the letter did not arrive at TT until March 2018 . My autopilot was shipped same day  the letter arrived. Corey personally called all of the preorders and gave us the news.

We  installed it  in the time they estimated. There was an issue just discovered with SOME Cherokees, mine was one of them. They jumped all over it, found a solution, fixed in record time. It worked correctly when powered up. Flew the plane properly and well with the factory settings. Continues to perform perfectly many hours and 12 months later.  I documented our install and a produced a document to help others, and consequently heard back from many happy TT owners...

For me, they got it right..

YMMV...

Nav

[David_H]

3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'd bet that Cory was out selling the story exactly as he was under orders from management, to say. I'm also sure that after continued missed deadlines and committed dates, it was becoming a more and more difficult story to tell, and he probably left of his own accord

I agree completely with this statement. There's not a good sales guy that knowingly puts his reputation on the cutting block without a promised hope of likely reward.

3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

It's a sad situation non-the-less, but I certainly wouldn't put the blame entirely on TruTrak.

I generally agree with you Paul, but respectfully disagree on this comment. If TT did in-fact made an executive decision to knowingly deceive it's potential customers in hopes of a "Hail-Mary" product approval timeline that wasn't close to being "in-the-works" and directed it's senior sales guys to "get the word out" ... then this shows an extremely "under-developed" executive judgement. The company as a whole deserves the oncoming negatives that come as a result of it's decision to knowingly and intentionally deceived it's potential customers... if that was indeed the purpose of letting this go on for a full year.

[Navi]

5 minutes ago, David_H said:

I agree completely with this statement. There's not a good sales guy that knowingly puts his reputation on the cutting block without a promised hope of likely reward.

I generally agree with you Paul, but respectfully disagree on this comment. If TT did in-fact made an executive decision to knowingly deceive it's potential customers in hopes of a "Hail-Mary" product approval timeline that wasn't close to being "in-the-works" and directed it's senior sales guys to "get the word out" ... then this shows an extremely "under-developed" executive judgement. The company as a whole deserves the oncoming negatives that come as a result of it's decision to knowingly and intentionally deceived it's potential customers... if that was indeed the purpose of letting this go on for a full year.

 

 

Is this all a result of a comment by someone new at TT who has only been on the job 3 weeks?  The same person that said someone was fired? I SERIOUSLY  question the wisdom of ANYONE commenting on why or someone left a position, especially if casts them in a negative light.... . Here they would be hauled to account under privacy legislation, and it is ugly.

TT have been working on the Mooney for months.. There is a Pix of  the Mooney with the TT label on the side of it from last year somewhere.. ...

[MIm20c]

27 minutes ago, Navi said:

 There is a Pix of  the Mooney with the TT label on the side of it from last year somewhere.. ...

July 27th, 2018

[Navi]

Ya!  That's one pix, the other pix was in their hangar about Nov. 2018...  Apparently the servo locations / mounting are all worked out as of now..

Nav

[ragedracer1977]

3 hours ago, Navi said:

 

 

Is this all a result of a comment by someone new at TT who has only been on the job 3 weeks?  The same person that said someone was fired? I SERIOUSLY  question the wisdom of ANYONE commenting on why or someone left a position, especially if casts them in a negative light.... . Here they would be hauled to account under privacy legislation, and it is ugly.

TT have been working on the Mooney for months.. There is a Pix of  the Mooney with the TT label on the side of it from last year somewhere.. ...

 

So, “we’re” going to form a lynch mob because of what some brand new employee, who’s a kid - apparently - said on the phone. 

People here seem to have purposefully bought a plane they didn’t want assuming the STC would be ready already.  Clearly, they didn’t do any research whatsoever into the STC process. And that is somehow TT, Jeeves, and Jesse’s fault

I guarantee you everyone involved wants to be selling these to Mooney drivers today.  There no reason for anyone to be “lying” about it.  There’s absolutely nothing to gain.

 

 

[ragedracer1977]

@Jeev is my name on your list equivalent to a preorder or do I need to contact TT? Im not going anywhere, I’ll be there whenever they’re ready!

[Jeev]

8 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

@Jeev is my name on your list equivalent to a preorder or do I need to contact TT? Im not going anywhere, I’ll be there whenever they’re ready!

Yes, I have you on the list, we are not taking any $$ till we have approval and I will honor the $200 off sale that Trutrak is running now for everyone on my list with no expiration date.  The day the approval comes I will contact everyone on the list and submit the orders in the same sequence as my list.  Thank you for your support! 

Sanjeev

[DustinNwind]

12 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

So, “we’re” going to form a lynch mob because of what some brand new employee, who’s a kid - apparently - said on the phone. 

People here seem to have purposefully bought a plane they didn’t want assuming the STC would be ready already.  Clearly, they didn’t do any research whatsoever into the STC process. And that is somehow TT, Jeeves, and Jesse’s fault

I guarantee you everyone involved wants to be selling these to Mooney drivers today.  There no reason for anyone to be “lying” about it.  There’s absolutely nothing to gain.

 

 

Brice, I can't speak for anyone else, but I bought a plane with out an autopilot based on them telling me they were waiting on STC from FAA which I was willing to wait for and have for a year now - sufficient time if the paperwork was sent off. I know very well how long FAA takes to move things along, but we're not evening talking about the STC process now because TT hasn't gotten to that point with Mooney yet (they haven't sent off the paperwork to FAA so the STC process has not started). Who knows what  reasoning people have for misleading others, we could go down the list of baffling situations where it makes so sense (why did POTUS just lie about his fathers birthday place, heck if I know?!), but it happens. All I appreciate is a real update on where they are with the process so consumers can make an educated plan of attack rather than wait on something that won't happen for another year (end of 2019 is the NEW projected STC). 

[Navi]

9 minutes ago, DustinNwind said:

Brice, I can't speak for anyone else, but I bought a plane with out an autopilot based on them telling me they were waiting on STC from FAA which I was willing to wait for and have for a year now - sufficient time if the paperwork was sent off. I know very well how long FAA takes to move things along, but we're not evening talking about the STC process now because TT hasn't gotten to that point with Mooney yet (they haven't sent off the paperwork to FAA so the STC process has not started). Who knows what  reasoning people have for misleading others, we could go down the list of baffling situations where it makes so sense (why did POTUS just lie about his fathers birthday place, heck if I know?!), but it happens. All I appreciate is a real update on where they are with the process so consumers can make an educated plan of attack rather than wait on something that won't happen for another year (end of 2019 is the NEW projected STC). 

I could tell you about my conversation with Zach on Wednesday  April 3.   It was mostly about the Aspen integration, but I did ask about the Mooney Project as well . (One of my plane partners would like to have a Mooney)

Call him yourself.  Or call Steve. (Wait until next week, at least next Wed for Steve, he is at S&F now and let him get back and unravelled..  :)  ) Zach and others are trying to fill in for Steve and others...  The number is 479-751-0250.

Nav

[David_H]

It doesn't seem like a lynch mob is in the works. There was certainly some "over promise under deliver" that happened so I can see where the disappointment is coming from. The reasons why aren't really important.

The STEC I've been flying behind still works fine so I'm somewhat unaffected by the news. The disappointment on my part was that I allowed myself to believe TT was closer than they actually were to getting things done.

TT delivering a solid product in a timely fashion would have been good for the AP market as a whole.

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by David_H

[Ragsf15e]

I have a question about the tt... can it track a non-gps signal?  I understand it’s not certified for approaches (yet), but can it even track an ILS or VOR or is it just a GPS baby?  I’ve got a GNS430, so easy to switch between gps and vor/lic.

[McMooney]

someone call up brittain and trio, 8(

[Hector]

I have a question about the tt... can it track a non-gps signal?  I understand it’s not certified for approaches (yet), but can it even track an ILS or VOR or is it just a GPS baby?  I’ve got a GNS430, so easy to switch between gps and vor/lic.

GPS only.


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[McMooney]

hey jeev, can you do an annual in a weekend? my annual vegas trip is coming up

 

[carusoam]

@Jeev Somebody looking for you... ^^^^

Best regards,

-a-

[Jeev]

1 hour ago, McMooney said:

hey jeev, can you do an annual in a weekend? my annual vegas trip is coming up

 

Hello - I sent you a PM