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TruTrak Autopilot Pre Order's / Status Update


Jeev

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Hello - 

I just spoke to TruTrak and was told that the government shutdown may have delayed the approval however the guys at Trutrak are pushing as hard as they can to get everything finalized.  As soon as I hear something I will post. Thank you,

Sanjeev

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/13/2019 at 8:03 AM, nosky2high said:

Sanjeev,

Thanks for keeping us updated, i’ll order mine now to lock in the price.

Anthony

Thanks Anthony Id love to take your money but no need as the pricing will be the same for everyone on Mooneyspace.  I just got word from TT that the retail price for the Mooney kit will be $5,000.  My price for Mooneyspacers will be $4,850 with free shipping in the CONUS and an additional $50 off if you pay by EFT instead of credit card.   I will definitely let you know when we are ready to bill.  I have a list of 16 Mooneyspacers who want the Vizion and will go down the list in order when TruTrak is ready to ship.  Hopefully getting close!!!!!

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43 minutes ago, DustinNwind said:

Just talked to TruTrak - the government pushed their certification to mid spring. Everything is done, just paperwork now. 

The guys at TruTrak are really pushing hard for spring.  They have done everything right and yes its up to the FAA now, I am really hoping for spring!

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1 hour ago, Jeev said:

Thanks Anthony Id love to take your money but no need as the pricing will be the same for everyone on Mooneyspace.  I just got word from TT that the retail price for the Mooney kit will be $5,000.  My price for Mooneyspacers will be $4,850 with free shipping in the CONUS and an additional $50 off if you pay by EFT instead of credit card.   I will definitely let you know when we are ready to bill.  I have a list of 16 Mooneyspacers who want the Vizion and will go down the list in order when TruTrak is ready to ship.  Hopefully getting close!!!!!

Hypothetically speaking, What kind of spirits delivered to you would it take to get a guy to the top of the list?  

 

:lol:

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1 minute ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Hypothetically speaking, What kind of spirits delivered to you would it take to get a guy to the top of the list?  

 

:lol:

HAHA!! Now days since I sold my J for a C310R the most liquid I'm consuming is blue and about $4.70 / gallon, no money left over for drink :).  I have given my list to TT,  they are expecting the orders so I'm hoping it won't be too bad on the wait for the ones I am sending out.  For the installs we will take about two weeks on the first one, nice and slow and taking notes.  After that we should be able to turn an install in 7-10 working days and under 40hrs in our Vegas shop.

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23 hours ago, Jeev said:

HAHA!! Now days since I sold my J for a C310R the most liquid I'm consuming is blue and about $4.70 / gallon, no money left over for drink :).  I have given my list to TT,  they are expecting the orders so I'm hoping it won't be too bad on the wait for the ones I am sending out.  For the installs we will take about two weeks on the first one, nice and slow and taking notes.  After that we should be able to turn an install in 7-10 working days and under 40hrs in our Vegas shop.

Hi Sanjeev, your last statement has me worried a bit! We used to say installation was 25hrs or less, which was a selling point compared to others. You’re now saying 40hrs or less?

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On 2/15/2019 at 7:04 PM, Jeev said:

HAHA!! Now days since I sold my J for a C310R the most liquid I'm consuming is blue and about $4.70 / gallon, no money left over for drink :).  I have given my list to TT,  they are expecting the orders so I'm hoping it won't be too bad on the wait for the ones I am sending out.  For the installs we will take about two weeks on the first one, nice and slow and taking notes.  After that we should be able to turn an install in 7-10 working days and under 40hrs in our Vegas shop.

 

1 hour ago, drapo said:

Hi Sanjeev, your last statement has me worried a bit! We used to say installation was 25hrs or less, which was a selling point compared to others. You’re now saying 40hrs or less?

 

Drapo makes a very good point. This is a significant change/deviation from the first post.

Edited by David_H
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TruTrak also seems to have backed away from their earlier claimed 18-hour install time. 

"There are many factors that go into determining how long an installation will take. Plus, labor rates vary significantly across the country / world. However, in general, an autopilot install in aircraft that hasn’t ever had an autopilot will usually take somewhere between 20 and 30 hours. At 20 to 30 hours that will usually cost between $2000 and $3000."

https://trutrakflightsystems.com/pages/faq

vs

"According to TruTrak, the average install time runs about 18 hours."

https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/trutrak-expands-vizion-stc/

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Hello Guys -

First off I am sorry as I was under the incorrect impression that I updated this thread so my last post was a little bit of a bomb drop.  After doing multiple installs we have found that while we have done a few in 25 hours the majority of them are taking 30-35 hrs to do a quality job.  The basic install of the Trutrak servos, wiring and control head are straightforward and that is a large credit to Trutrak for designing a great system, so the base install is taking around 25 hrs.  Where we have consistently run into issues and extra time is the existing airframes and avionics.  When it is time to wire in the AP DISCO, GPS interface and mount the servos we have run into the following issues repeatedly: old wiring, the need to rewire the entire control horn (trim, PTT) to fit the DISCO switch, move airframe antennas that are mounted where the servos need to be, re working the GPS harness due to no available pins.  These are common things we have encountered and are definitely aircraft specific. When we find one of these things we stop and call the owner to discuss the options and costs then move forward in agreement, we have not billed over 40 hours even on the worst "rats nest" wiring so we are comfortable capping that as a worst case estimate, most jobs fall between 30-35 hrs.  We obviously have not done a Mooney yet but have my previously owned J set up for the first instal and will have a good idea of actual costs for the base install a few weeks after the kit is available.

As Toto mentioned TruTrak was originally estimating 18 hours but have now backed off that.  When I typed the first post I was going off that but after the first couple installs I quickly realized that time was not realistic.  My goal is to be upfront with pricing and I was overzealous just going off of the TT time.  I definitely do not want to mislead anyone and before we start work on your aircraft I want to have a hard upper limit to the job so you know what to expect, my apologies for any miscommunication I may have caused. 

Sanjeev

    

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On 12/8/2018 at 12:28 AM, Jesse Saint said:

The TT install in a Mooney should be around $7,250 in our shop at X35 in north central Florida too. There would be some extra charge for removing an old auto pilot if necessary and desired. 

@Jesse Saint I wonder if this estimate will also be revised?

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8 hours ago, David_H said:

How does install times increase as a product matures?

There's a distinct smell in the air. Expensive perfume... or perhaps something else.

I’m not noticing any unusual smell in the air.  The shop rates needed to keep the doors open and employees paid will vary in different parts of the country.  I have no idea what the above shops charge by the hour. But if Jesse holds to the $7250 that would be around 28ish hours. He clearly states that the price/time would need to be increased for removal of an old system. IMO we are splitting hairs at this point depending on how much trash they find behind the panel. Getting the job done right is the most important thing for a system as important as the AP. 

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AN avionics shop I talked to suggested that generally they expect "25 hours per servo" as the work required to get into a wing and install a servo, along with the avionics work.  So roughly 50 hours for a 2 servo system.  How can some of these autopilots be significantly less since a lot of that work is actually relative to the airframe rather than the avionics?

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I'm a novice to much of these but why didn't TruTrak come out with adapter plates or different servo motor housings to "plug and play" into existing installations? Aren't there only a few legacy manufacturers out there? I understand the tedious nature of anything related to aircraft maintenance but if they were just replacing servos and running new cables, why on earth would it take so long? 

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Did 9 hrs hobbs time on Friday. After a while my butt got uncomfortable and every time I repositioned myself I had to retrim. Made me think about the Trutrac and how disappointing it doesn't have pitch trim. Still a good option and only option immediately for my short body but just an observation that came to me.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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I don’t understand all of the disappointment expressed on this thread. There has been exactly 1 Mooney fitted with a TruTrak as I understand, and that was during the engineering phase. The install manual isn’t even released yet.  Nobody knows how long it will take until they have done it. The general consensus in the maintenance world is that Mooney’s are a little tougher to work on than, say, Piper’s and Cessnas because they pack a lot of stuff in a small airframe, etc, etc. Conjecture over how many hours it’s going to take to install and how much it will cost is truly meaningless until it is a known quantity. 

As for adapting a Trutrak to existing brackets, I don’t see how that could even be possible. Not all auto pilot servos are the same, and Century, King and STEC are not installed the same way. TruTrak has to try to make a one-size-fits-all system so some models don’t get left out. They obviously get ideas from the other A/P manufacturers, but they have to make their own installations. 

Edited by Jesse Saint
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43 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

AN avionics shop I talked to suggested that generally they expect "25 hours per servo" as the work required to get into a wing and install a servo, along with the avionics work.  So roughly 50 hours for a 2 servo system.  How can some of these autopilots be significantly less since a lot of that work is actually relative to the airframe rather than the avionics?

The theory is that TruTrak really is taking a different, simpler approach. They are installing all servos in space accessible from the cabin ("under the seats" is how I've heard it described). Which is meant to cut the install time in half. It may end up being that removing legacy AP stuff is the bulk of the work. 

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1 hour ago, toto said:

The theory is that TruTrak really is taking a different, simpler approach. They are installing all servos in space accessible from the cabin ("under the seats" is how I've heard it described). Which is meant to cut the install time in half. It may end up being that removing legacy AP stuff is the bulk of the work. 

This is exactly correct.  TruTrak has done an amazing job designing the existing approved systems to fit in open spots on legacy airframes.  We have had no problems related to the TruTrak system on our Piper and Cessna installs.  All of the issues we have come across have been related to the specific airframes we are working on.  My last Mooney was in great condition but it was a 1978 that has had many hands in her over the years, my current aircraft is a 1976.  Just as an aircraft owner for 15 years I know that once you start poking around in these airframes you are going to always find something.

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I was not knocking down the TruTrak system, just putting everything into context. When all of that started, install time was the big plus compared to the other competitor, namely Trio and the STC Group. To refresh memories, TruTrak was aiming for a simplified installation with  install times to be 25hrs or less and that was confirmed by dealers who were starting to offer installed TT system in Mooneys in the  $7500 range. Basically, $5000 for the hardware (servos, controller harnesses and install kit) and 25hrs install at roughly $100hr. STC group, with its Trio offering, was asking $3000 for the autopilot hardware, another $3000 for the install kit and 30hrs install time at $100/hr.

Now for the updated estimate on the TruTrak by Sanjeev. We have jumped from an estimated install time of 25hrs, because of the simpler servo locations and overall engineering to a 40hrs install, a 60% increase, while JesseSaint seems to be sticking with his earlier estimate. If we believe this new information, the STC Group and their Trio offering are now neck to neck with the TruTrak.

I think there is «Some more splaining to do!», as some famous character from the Here's Lucy show used to say, so we can compare apples to apples and not oranges!

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2 hours ago, Jesse Saint said:

I don’t understand all of the disappointment expressed on this thread. There has been exactly 1 Mooney fitted with a TruTrak as I understand, and that was during the engineering phase. The install manual isn’t even released yet.  Nobody knows how long it will take until they have done it. The general consensus in the maintenance world is that Mooney’s are a little tougher to work on than, say, Piper’s and Cessnas because they pack a lot of stuff in a small airframe, etc, etc. Conjecture over how many hours it’s going to take to install and how much it will cost is truly meaningless until it is a known quantity. 

As for adapting a Trutrak to existing brackets, I don’t see how that could even be possible. Not all auto pilot servos are the same, and Century, King and STEC are not installed the same way. TruTrak has to try to make a one-size-fits-all system so some models don’t get left out. They obviously get ideas from the other A/P manufacturers, but they have to make their own installations. 

Thank you Jesse you are spot on. Gentlemen, you have two shops us on the west coast and Jesse on the east coast who are being transparent with pricing, have experience installing these systems and are excited about TruTrak.  Thank all for your interest I will definitely be intouch with any updates and I am still working on a Fly-In to the factory when the weather is warmer there. 

As always please reach out to me with any questions. 

Sanjeev 

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Some models will be harder to work on than others and panels wiring condition will affect install times. Everyone can agree about that as well as it being good that TT is bringing competition to the autopilot market.

The 18 hr "average install time" published in 2018 put many under the impression that TT knew what they were talking about since they'd been working on the project for a while. Of course the Mooney application wasn't in the mix at that time... but the increase is significant. 

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15 minutes ago, drapo said:

I was not knocking down the TruTrak system, just putting everything into context. When all of that started, install time was the big plus compared to the other competitor, namely Trio and the STC Group. To refresh memories, TruTrak was aiming for a simplified installation with  install times to be 25hrs or less and that was confirmed by dealers who were starting to offer installed TT system in Mooneys in the  $7500 range. Basically, $5000 for the hardware (servos, controller harnesses and install kit) and 25hrs install at roughly $100hr. STC group, with its Trio offering, was asking $3000 for the autopilot hardware, another $3000 for the install kit and 30hrs install time at $100/hr.

Now for the updated estimate on the TruTrak by Sanjeev. We have jumped from an estimated install time of 25hrs, because of the simpler servo locations and overall engineering to a 40hrs install, a 60% increase, while JesseSaint seems to be sticking with his earlier estimate. If we believe this new information, the STC Group and their Trio offering are now neck to neck with the TruTrak.

I think there is «Some more splaining to do!», as some famous character from the Here's Lucy show used to say, so we can compare apples to apples and not oranges!

I understand where you are coming from and thank you for asking these questions and for the humorous quotes. 

To be clear we have only had one install approach 40 hrs and that aircraft truly had a rats nest of wiring.  All of the other installs have been close to 30-35 hrs ($95/hr) and that includes removal of the old autopilot and fabrication of mounting plates for the controller if needed so Jessie and I are within a few hours of each other.   My main point is that I can not promise a 25 hour install.  

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