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10 Hrs. Dual? Really?


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Got the insurance quote for the F I am in the process of buying from Don Maxwell.  The price and everything is reasonable, but I am going from well over 100 hours in a C to an F and they want me to have 10 hours duel.  I was shocked.  I can make this work without too much trouble because I am working on my IR, so I figure we can just go from the Cessna to the Mooney for ten hours of hoodwork, and it will be ten hours of dual.  He has plenty of Mooney time in his past before going on to A Hawker and King Airs.

The hassle will be the logistics of getting the plane home.  On the good side it is only a 45 nM flight to get her to her new home.

Edited by MBDiagMan
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I am surprised.

What insurance co? Maybe you could find a different one...

When I bought my F, I had 300-350 TT, 50+ retract and 4h in m20J for a complex endorsement some years ago. Insurance requested only signoff by CFI which I did in couple of hours and then flew plane home.

 

Good luck.

 

Edited by Igor_U
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Could it be no to little time in the last 90 days or more. Low time and no recency could trigger the max.

But since your starting your IR soonest, it seems it will hardly matter.

Good luck with the purchase and training!

 

BTW, I was cracking up thinking of you "dueling" for 10 hrs waiting to read the insurance made the typo on your policy.

It's Dual

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

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The Cessna burns half as much fuel and is just fun to fly.  My instructor and I both find it to be a hoot.  We will decide which I will do the checkride in as time goes along.  If I do it in the 140, I plan on also coming out the other end competent with the Mooney, the 430 et al.  We got started in the Cessna after I injured my shoulder and could no longer handle the Johnson Bar, and just found it to be fun.

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14 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

The Cessna burns half as much fuel and is just fun to fly.  My instructor and I both find it to be a hoot.  We will decide which I will do the checkride in as time goes along.  If I do it in the 140, I plan on also coming out the other end competent with the Mooney, the 430 et al.  We got started in the Cessna after I injured my shoulder and could no longer handle the Johnson Bar, and just found it to be fun.

What a great problem to have... which airplane to fly today?

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I did notice that the F lands differently than my C. Not better or worse, just different. 

While I don't mind receiving instruction, if you can stretch a duel out frim a few minutes to 10 hours, you're both doing something wrong  . . .  ;)

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It is indeed fun to have two completely different type airplanes.  I had the taildragger for a long time before the Mooney.  It is not worth a lot of Money, but is a very unique airplane.  It costs very little to insure and annual and there is room in the hangar for it, so I just can’t come up with a reason to sell it.  For those of you who come to the Mooney event in Longview in October, come to the museum event in Mount Pleasan5 and you can see my little taildragger along with my Mooney and Steve Jones beautiful F.  

The museum is great because it is full of wonderful warbirds, AIRWORTHY warbirds.  If weather permits, you will most likely see a few of them fly.  If you are a veteran, Scott may very well give you a ride in one of them.  He is known for giving rides to veterans.

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8 minutes ago, RLCarter said:

Ahhh, it's your Cessna and not a rental. Take the 140 to get the Mooney, CFI flies the Mooney home you fly the 140 back

Yep, that is a very likely scenario.  Another possible scenario is Don flying my F home and getting a tail wheel ride home.  The only problem is that Longview is Charlie airspace and the transponder in the 140 is past due for certification.  That is on the list to get done though.

Edited by MBDiagMan
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21 minutes ago, RLCarter said:

Ahhh, it's your Cessna and not a rental. Take the 140 to get the Mooney, CFI flies the Mooney home you fly the 140 back

This is what I did. Flew my Mooney to Memphis and picked up my instructor and flew him back to my base. He flew the twin back to Memphis and I left it there until I finished my rating. It was about 55 miles one way (great way to build XCountry time). Just flew the Mooney to and from everyday until I was done. When I finished I flew the twin home and had a buddy take me back then next weekend to get the Mooney.

I'm now flying back and forth to the same instructor and school for my IFR. One day I might take the Mooney and the next time I fly the twin. If the wallet is feeling extra thin I always opt for the Mooney to train in..  :)

The plus side is I'm setting a record for hours I flown in a year. Already at 89 hrs this year and still have the rest of IFR training to go and a trip back to New England and also one to the Florida Keys scheduled. That's a lot of flying for me..

 

-Tom

 

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Once when I bought a plane, the broker told me the underwriter wanted 5 hours of dual.  I told my broker that would be nearly impossible given the circumstances.  The underwriter agreed to zero dual...just fly the plane home solo.

Try negotiating the 10 hours down to something more reasonable.  Unless there's something in your record you're not telling us, the underwriter may relax his "requirement".

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1 hour ago, MBDiagMan said:

The only problem is that Longview is Charlie airspace and the transponder in the 140 is past due for certification.  That is on the list to get done though.

Longview (KGGG) is a Delta with a TRSA, or Class D "with Radar".  I am pretty sure Mode C is not required.  It is controlled airspace but until 2020 (ADS-B) it is not (yet) required.  Mode A is required for a TRSA but not Mode C.

I would not think going from a C to an F should require 10 hrs.  My Cessna time to an F required 10hrs and I had no RG or Complex time when that requirement came up.  I then went from an F to a K/231 and insurance did not require anything more, however, FAA regs stipulated I needed a "High Performance" endorsement.  I still went with a Mooney CFI to learn the turbo difference.  I don't understand the 10 from a C to and F unless, like someone said, there is more - maybe recent time.

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Insurance companies are fickle.  When we finished the 150 last week they wanted both my buddy and I to have a type check with an instructor.  By the time negotiations were complete neither of us required a check flight, and we could approve any pilot to fly it at our discretion.

Clarence

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Thanks for the research on KGG Bryan!  Saves me some steps for the short term.

There’s nothing on my record that should cause problems.  Maybe it is my age, 69.  If it is recency, I flew the C regularly until about two months ago when I injured my shoulder.

Thanks for all the comments and good information.

Edited by MBDiagMan
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Another insurance data point:

I had around 70ish hours in a rental B model when I bought my F.  Insurance didn't bat an eye, no dual, no mins before passengers; I even double checked that they considered an F the same 'model' as the B.  They did.

Granted, I had recency of experience in the B as I was renting it up until I got my F.

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Not to hijack this thread, and on a related topic, what is the prevailing opinion regarding the best insurance providers for Mooney owners?  I see Falcon advertise in MAPA but have no real intel on their reputation and/or whether there is one or two Mooney “go-to” insurers. With the many decades of experience on this board, I suspect there are some common themes.  

As a soon to be Mooney newbie, who should I be looking at?

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1 hour ago, MBDiagMan said:

Thanks for the research on KGG Bryan!  Saves me some steps for the short term.

There’s nothing on my record that should cause problems.  Maybe it is my age, 69.  If it is recency, I flew the C regularly set nail about two months ago when I injured my shoulder.

Thanks for all the comments and good information.

It has nothing to do with your age. It is simply because you are moving into the F Troup. We all know the F model is the quintessential core of all that came after it. It is the Godfather of the J, K,L,M,N,O,P,Q,R,S,T,U,V and anything else Mooney made. It requires a further training in order to live at the higher plane (pun intended) of existence. 

Can't wait to hear about your experiences with her.

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10 minutes ago, Jpflysdfw said:

Not to hijack this thread, and on a related topic, what is the prevailing opinion regarding the best insurance providers for Mooney owners?  I see Falcon advertise in MAPA but have no real intel on their reputation and/or whether there is one or two Mooney “go-to” insurers. With the many decades of experience on this board, I suspect there are some common themes.  As a soon to be Mooney newbie, who should I be looking at?

Wendy Wenk

Wenk Aviation Insurance, LLC

900 North Shore Drive, Suite 109, Lake Bluff, IL  60044

847.235.2491 phone  800.225.9365 toll free  847.235.2559 fax

wendy@wenkaviation.com

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did the agent say that you need 10 hours dual in "make and type" or you need 10 hours dual in your new F model?  If its the later, you probably already satisfied that requirement and you should just fly it home.  I would venture to guess that the agent doesn't know the difference between a C and an F and they were just reading off a script prepared for them.  

Edited by tony
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2 hours ago, tony said:

did the agent say that you need 10 hours dual in "make and type" or you need 10 hours dual in your new F model?  If its the later, you probably already satisfied that requirement and you should just fly it home.  I would venture to guess that the agent doesn't know the difference between a C and an F and they were just reading off a script prepared for them.  

Unless I were willing to take the risk of a denial of coverage in the case of damage, I would not accept "probably ok." Yes, the agent is reading from a script (although this stuff is typically in writing). Agents don't make up minimum requirements, underwriters do. And the insurer may very well understand the difference and accept the equivalent time, reject it or apply it in some other way based on the information in an application. 

The insurance application should have specified what it wanted. All the ones I've seen, including the one I filled out yesterday, do. 

Being very specific on what is requested doesn't preclude answering more broadly. For example, almost 2 years ago, I filled out an application to be added to an owner's Ovation policy. It asked for make and model in an M20R. I put in my zero with an asterisk and also gave them my J and Bonanza time (on the theory that familiarity with an equivalent engine might count for something).

Edited by midlifeflyer
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