Hartzell Acclaim 3 Blade vs MT Composite 4 blade?

[Niko182]

Well I've been slowly lurking around looking at the main 2 options once
the decision to switch. As of right now I'm looking between the 4 blade MT
and the 3 blade.

Pros of the 4 blade:
- Looks cool
- I'll end up with a useful load of 1155lbs
- More rearward CG at 44.06 in
- Shorter takeoff and Landing distance
- Full feathering
- Did I say kool?
- I heard they are turbine smooth

Pros of the 3 blade:
- Also looks kool
- I'm guessing faster cruise. 
- not a pro but cg will be further forward at 43.55
- Also not a pro but useful load will be 1143

 

The MT has the majority of the pros, but I can't find prices of these 2 anywhere
and I want some Pireps on what to expect from either. I heard numbers like 186-187 knots
with the acclaim prop. What should I expect with the 4 blade. Also the 4 blade helps alot with
a personal goal to get the useful load to 1200lbs.

Edited July 15, 2018 by Niko182

[MIm20c]

Is the MT included in the 2700 stc?

probably looking at 20k including the rpm stc. 

The additional hp is worth far more than a few lbs of useful load imo. 

Not sure how you’re going to get another 50 lbs of useful. The eagle is already pretty empty. One seat and no interior?

[Niko182]

I wouldnt say empty, but it still has a couple tricks up its sleeve. Strobe light to led. Both vacuum and back up vacuum. The moritz gauges, 6 pack, kln94, kt76c, kx155 are all getting taken out over time and getting switched out with a 345r, gtn750, g500txi, gnc255, and a couple other things.

And yes, the 4 blade does get the aircraft the 310hp stc with the 2700 redline.

[kmyfm20s]

Taking out the vacuum and backup vacuum gave me 12lbs more useful load.

[StevenL757]

6 hours ago, Niko182 said:

Well I've been slowly lurking around looking at the main 2 options once
the decision to switch. As of right now I'm looking between the 4 blade MT
and the 3 blade.

The MT has the majority of the pros, but I can't find prices of these 2 anywhere
and I want some Pireps on what to expect from either. I heard numbers like 186-187 knots
with the acclaim prop. What should I expect with the 4 blade. Also the 4 blade helps alot with
a personal goal to get the useful load to 1200lbs.

Niko, your points for each are largely-accurate.  I’ve done this homework several times throughout the last few years on my own aircraft before making a decision, and based on discussions I’ve had with leadership and engineering folks at both MT and Hartzell.  Here’s the summary...

- The MT will dramatically outperform the MacCauley 2 and 3-blade options for takeoff and cruise performance

- The MT will outperform the Hartzell “7693” model (the “standard” Hartzell scimitar prop), but only by a few knots

- The Acclaim Type-S prop (“7498” model) will perform similarly to the MT, and on some airplanes, possibly outperform it in cruise

- Last cost I had quoted on the MT (about 3 weeks ago) for the Ovation is $20,127 without TKS parts, and around $21,700 with TKS.  A price increase was likely in the short-term

- The 7498 was between $15k and $17k list cost, but can be had for (realistically) $14.7k (no TKS) to $16’ish (with TKS)

- If your goal is more useful load and a bit quieter operation, then the MT is for you.  Otherwise, you should go with the 7498

My IA in San Marcos, TX is in the process of pulling a 7693 and installing an MT on an Ovation right now.  I can put the two of you together for a quick call if you want a first-hand account of the process and observations, so let me know if you want his contact info.  He is happy to share his experiences to help you make a decision.

Steve

[Mooney in Oz]

@aviatoreb does a good pirep on the MT 4 blade attached to his K Rocket in the above link as does @Txbyker in the below link.  

[Txbyker]

@Niko182  Expect to pay about $18K for non-TKS, plus local MT dealer assembly, plus installation and balance, all-in perhaps $20K.  That was what is was not too long ago.  Full feathering?  I used the same governor, just prop swap.  Your pros and cons look correct.  I will add that the weight difference is mostly in the blades and as such the prop is super quick to spin up and slow down.  RPM adjustments are more or less instantaneous.  Landings take a few to get through.  I just finished my commercial CPL and the power out 180 was giving me fits.  Twisting the power to the stops make you sink and come up short or overshoot every time.  The final two twist of the throttle brake the plane as opposed to the Hartzell.  Speeds in cruise for me are indifferent.  Gain a knot at one setting, loose a knot in the other.  @aviatoreb aka Erik has a lot of hours in his and probably add more info.  Cool?  Yep!

Russ

 

[M016576]

1200 lbs useful in sight... wow- more proof that the Eagle is the best of the longbodies.  That’s a heck of a mooney, @Niko182!

[Niko182]

what cruise do people with the 7498 see?

what cruise do people with the Mt see?

i saw all the previous pireps so I was asking for more long term reviews
of the prop. I've read all the previous conversations about the mt slowly falling
apart with its paint but that problem looks to have been solved a while back.

[carusoam]

MT issues of paint erosion have a technical solution of selecting the right paint, process, and proper metal for the leading edge...

The four blade MT has only been around for about 6 years on the LBs...

Hartzell also has a composite TopProp worth comparing to....

Scott from Kansas has had an MT on his J for a really long time...

 

The WnB of a composite prop makes a lot of sense for the LB Mooney...

There is quite a large difference in weight between the composite and aluminum blades...

 

As for T/O distance and climb rates... that is going to be an engineering numbers game... the 310hp provides awesome climb rates... a four blader may show some efficiency over the three?

Verify the full feathering capability of MT...?   Surely nice to have if able...  

Wondering if the Rocket, That has this skill is being confused with the MT that has been mounted on a Rocket...

The full feathering option would have costs in other areas that has often been unappreciated... full feathering gov failure on departure for example....

Not sure If somebody said full feathering and MT here somewhere... I couldn’t find it again... thought I saw it...

If Max UL is the primary goal the three blade MT and three blade composite TP will make a great debate!

the four blade MT... needs D-Day stripes to get the full effect...  

Does your Eagle need new paint?

 

Best regards,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

6 hours ago, Mooney in Oz said:

@aviatoreb does a good pirep on the MT 4 blade attached to his K Rocket in the above link as does @Txbyker in the below link.  

Thanks for digging out my old pirep.  A few years on... I’ll says I love it as much as I did in the first place! 

[Niko182]

8 minutes ago, carusoam said:

MT issues of paint erosion have a technical solution of selecting the right paint, process, and proper metal for the leading edge...

The four blade MT has only been around for about 6 years on the LBs...

Hartzell also has a composite TopProp worth comparing to....

Scott from Kansas has had an MT on his J for a really long time...

 

The WnB of a composite prop makes a lot of sense for the LB Mooney...

There is quite a large difference in weight between the composite and aluminum blades...

 

As for T/O distance and climb rates... that is going to be an engineering numbers game... the 310hp provides awesome climb rates... a four blader may show some efficiency over the three?

Verify the full feathering capability of MT...?   Surely nice to have if able...  

Wondering if the Rocket, That has this skill is being confused with the MT that has been mounted on a Rocket...

The full feathering option would have costs in other areas that has often been unappreciated... full feathering gov failure on departure for example....

Not sure If somebody said full feathering and MT here somewhere... I couldn’t find it again... thought I saw it...

If Max UL is the primary goal the three blade MT and three blade composite TP will make a great debate!

the four blade MT... needs D-Day stripes to get the full effect...  

Does your Eagle need new paint?

 

Best regards,

-a-

here it say full feathering. That's where i got that info from.
https://www.mt-propeller.com/pdf/stcflyer/FL061US.pdf

i believe MT doesn't offer a 3 blade and the 3 blade plastic prop that Hartzell offers i heard costs a fortune,
and looking at the specs, it weighs 3.8 lbs more. I wouldn't sweat the 3.8 lbs, but spending 10 extra grand,
to add 3.8 pounds is a little odd IMO. and paint is debatable. The paint on this plane is exceptional because
sat in a hangar for about 10 years, not really being flown. 107 hours have been put on the engine in the last 3
months, somewhat humorous, as its flown more in the last 3 months since new ownership, than it has in the
last 10 years.

[carusoam]

Niko,

Both MT and Hartzell have excellent contacts in the US... worth getting accurate details/quotes from both...

I bought my TopProp (Acclaim version) a few months before MT got the STC worked out for the O... they only had it available for the Bravo at the time...

See if you can also get a proper spinner/cowl match... at the time, my Hartzell spinner is about a quarter inch too small for the hole... it is a poor match for such an aerodynamic plane....

Also Check on the diameter of the blade disc... MG may have a one inch ground clearance advantage...

https://hartzellprop.com/products/top-prop/mooney/m20r-no-anti-ice/

Got fiki?

 

 

Is it too late to add some D-day stripes, Erik?      Note for @aviatoreb

https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/stripes-d-day

Best regards,

-a-

[Txbyker]

what cruise do people with the 7498 see?

what cruise do people with the Mt see?

i saw all the previous pireps so I was asking for more long term reviews

of the prop. I've read all the previous conversations about the mt slowly falling

apart with its paint but that problem looks to have been solved a while back.

MT Prop, O2GX, A/C, non-FIKI 

LOP 10000 2450 rpm 171kts

ROP 10000 2450 rpm 175 kts

examples.

I have had the prop almost a year.  No paint issues, 120 hrs.  There is one  spinner for both icing and non-icing so expect a gap on non icing.

 

Russ

 

[Niko182]

Mt is 2 to 4 inches smaller in Dia. 
what cruise do you get out of your 3 blade acclaim Prop?

Question regarding the MT. do you pick the colour of the prop?

 

http://www.planecheck.com/image.asp?Imgname=39689/img039168675065.jpg

http://www.ovation-gmbh.com/
http://strategicaircraft.com/2000-mooney-m20-r-ovation-2-n77ph/#
 

they are all the same model of props with different colours.

[aviatoreb]

46 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Niko,

Both MT and Hartzell have excellent contacts in the US... worth getting accurate details/quotes from both...

I bought my TopProp (Acclaim version) a few months before MT got the STC worked out for the O... they only had it available for the Bravo at the time...

See if you can also get a proper spinner/cowl match... at the time, my Hartzell spinner is about a quarter inch too small for the hole... it is a poor match for such an aerodynamic plane....

Also Check on the diameter of the blade disc... MG may have a one inch ground clearance advantage...

https://hartzellprop.com/products/top-prop/mooney/m20r-no-anti-ice/

Got fiki?

 

 

Is it too late to add some D-day stripes, Erik?      Note for @aviatoreb

https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/stripes-d-day

Best regards,

-a-

I dunno - those WWII airplanes are nice but they ain’t no Mooney rocket.  I guess that P51 is ok if you can’t get a rocket.

Edited July 15, 2018 by aviatoreb

[aviatoreb]

7 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

Mt is 2 to 4 inches smaller in Dia. 
what cruise do you get out of your 3 blade acclaim Prop?

Question regarding the MT. do you pick the colour of the prop?

 

http://www.planecheck.com/image.asp?Imgname=39689/img039168675065.jpg

http://www.ovation-gmbh.com/
http://strategicaircraft.com/2000-mooney-m20-r-ovation-2-n77ph/#
 

they are all the same model of props with different colours.

Hey!  I recognize that airplane! Yeah especially on a rocket that normally comes with a massive long and heavy McCauley from the Cessna 340 - you save a lot of weight, get a lot of ground clearance and and amuch more modern aerodynamic prop that easily makes up for the extra blade.

the reason it is so smooth is besides one more blade and more modern scimitar aero the material is compliant so it bends slightly as it’s grasping air. You can see the slight bend if you look at it side on on the ground while it’s spinning.

It definitely gets comments everywhere it goes / even sharing the tarmac last week with a p51 and several other gorgeous war birds the lineman were extremely complimentary.

Btw yes you can pick the colors of the prop the strip and the dome. Anything you want.  I highly highly recommend the nickel covering treatment.  Looks good and highly durable.  Also I have the tks spinner.

Edited July 15, 2018 by aviatoreb

[KSMooniac]

FWIW, I ordered my MT 8 years ago at OSH with a show discount. It arrived in November if my memory serves. I'm fortunate to have a distributor local to me that assembled it and let me pick it up in my truck for installation in my hangar with my mechanic. I ordered directly thru MT and not a US shop, but YMMV these days.

I'm still very happy with it.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[StevenL757]

7 hours ago, Txbyker said:

@Niko182  Expect to pay about $18K for non-TKS, plus local MT dealer assembly, plus installation and balance, all-in perhaps $20K.  That was what is was not too long ago.  Full feathering?  I used the same governor, just prop swap.  Your pros and cons look correct.  I will add that the weight difference is mostly in the blades and as such the prop is super quick to spin up and slow down.  RPM adjustments are more or less instantaneous.  Landings take a few to get through.  I just finished my commercial CPL and the power out 180 was giving me fits.  Twisting the power to the stops make you sink and come up short or overshoot every time.  The final two twist of the throttle brake the plane as opposed to the Hartzell.  Speeds in cruise for me are indifferent.  Gain a knot at one setting, loose a knot in the other.  @aviatoreb aka Erik has a lot of hours in his and probably add more info.  Cool?  Yep!

Russ

 

Hey Russ, I forgot you had this done several months ago...hope all is well and that Brian took good care of you!

Steve

[Txbyker]

53 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

Hey Russ, I forgot you had this done several months ago...hope all is well and that Brian took good care of you!

Steve

Yes, thanks.  Greg @gsengle flew down and had Brian replace his McCauley with the Hartzell.  Last I heard Greg saw better performance with the Hartzell on his 6+ hour leg home.  We both just missed you at KHYI.

Russ

[gsengle]

Yes, thanks.  Greg [mention=8040]gsengle[/mention] flew down and had Brian replace his McCauley with the Hartzell.  Last I heard Greg saw better performance with the Hartzell on his 7 hour leg home.
Russ

The climb is where it’s dramatic... but I had the old McCauley...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[StevenL757]

Yea, wait until you get your prop governor tweaked to allow 2700RPM/310HP.  It will improve again significantly...not just on climb but will shave around 500 feet off your takeoff run.  Trust me...you’ll love it even more so.  :-)

[carusoam]

Russ’s bird flying right...

MT Has the same small mismatch of spinner diameter / cowl as the Hartzell... 

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[Jim Peace]

23 hours ago, Niko182 said:

Strobe light to led. Both vacuum and back up vacuum. The moritz gauges, 6 pack, kln94, kt76c, kx155 are all getting taken out over time and getting switched out with a 345r, gtn750, g500txi, gnc255, and a couple other things.

I did a lot of that to my C.  My useful load went down just a bit.  I think its because of all the miles of wiring that went in to make all the stuff talk to each other....

[aviatoreb]

8 hours ago, carusoam said:

Russ’s bird flying right...

MT Has the same small mismatch of spinner diameter / cowl as the Hartzell... 

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

Mine does not.  Mine matches great.