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Updating/Fixing Mooney Avionics/Instruments


sdflysurf

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Ok so I am a new pilot and a new owner of a plane that is getting annual for the first time in several years so I'm pretty much a beginner but learning fast.

My Airspeed indicator (I think it is the original) is not working properly, doesn't register until higher speed.  My transponder (Old Narco AT50A) failed the IFR cert.

Wondering if I should have them overhauled - or just buy good used ones and swap them out until I can afford a new panel upgrade.

I have a 1968 M20F - What model number airspeed indicator is that, and is there a OEM or other manufacturer replacement?

So - can I buy one (Airspeed indicator or transponder or both) off of EBAY or BARNSTORMER or HERE with or without a "yellow tag" or a "8130 form" and have my avionics guy put it in and sign it off if it works?

Also correct me if I am wrong but, I am allowed to remove the instrument/avionics but I cannot re-install them, I would have to have my avionics tech do that right?

I did buy a used Garmin GMA340 Audio panel without a tag and Garmin said they could overhaul it through a dealer for around 200-300 and provide a serviceable tag with warranty.  I also bought a Garmin GNS430 (non-waas) with a serviceable tag (both of these to be installed later), and I bought a GNS530 (non-waas) with tray and a serviceable tag that I am not going to use after all so if someone needs one let me know.

 

Thanks for your advice!

-Matt

 

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Welcome aboard.

I'd say it depends.

Where are you based?  Are you likely to be flying into airspace that needs ADS-B?  If not, you can probably get a used transponder like at KT76A pretty cheaply these days.  If so, you might just want to bite the bullet and get an ADS-B OUT transponder.  ADS-B IN is nice but it's up to you if you'd want to spend the extra money.

As for the airspeed indicator, I'll leave that the experts.  We have a shop on our field that does the work for a reasonable price but I don't know your situation.

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You'll need to get the correct ASI with the proper markings for your plane that match the speeds in your POH. Instrument shops will be able to mark them. It might be easier to send your existing one in for repair and perhaps get the face re-marked if it is faded vs procuring a different unit.

 

My advice as an owner of a 530W and 430W...sell that 430 and keep/install the 530. Strongly consider sending it in for a WAAS upgrade as well to freshen it up and give you more capability. The extra screen size and arc/map option is way better than having a single 430.

 

I'd also sell the GMA 340 and buy a PS Engineering unit instead...there are used ones out there for modest money with much better performance than that Garmin unit. (I replaced my 340 last year and am amazed at the PMA450A) If you're going to the effort to wire a new audio panel I'd choose the better unit.

 

Don't put any money into Narco anything. Figure out how you want to meet the ADS-B requirement and then choose a new/newer xponder. Some need a WAAS input like the older 330ES (can be bought for less than 2k. Or buy a cheap 327 for now and add a separate ADS-B box later.

 

You can remove anything you like, but need a licensed mechanic to install, or supervise you doing the work. I do that as much as possible and highly recommend that path if you're so inclined and have a good relationship with a mechanic. You don't need 8130/yellow tags to install everything...the installing authority can determine if it is functioning correctly. Some repair stations or foreign operators require an 8130 but part 91 operators do not in all cases.

 

Welcome to the madness! I'm glad to learn of a dormant plane getting a new life.

 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I strongly recommend you sit with your avionics installer and go over all the questions you posted. While there are many opinions (here and elsewhere) that will vary considerably as to the requirements it is really important to have your installer (the guy that signs the log books) on board with what you plan to do. 

Yellow tag (serviceable) really doesn't mean anything but some shops will not touch avioncis without a tag of some kind, so you need to ask and find out how your guy feels about it. 

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https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/pic-archive/aircraft-ownership/preventive-maintenance

Removing and replacing self-contained, front instrument panel-mounted navigation and communication devices that employ tray-mounted connectors that connect the unit when the unit is installed into the instrument panel, (excluding automatic flight control systems, transponders, and microwave frequency distance measuring equipment (DME). The approved unit must be designed to be readily and repeatedly removed and replaced, and pertinent instructions must be provided. Prior to the unit's intended use, an operational check must be performed in accordance with the applicable sections of part 91.

http://www.aviationpros.com/article/12008258/faa-feedback-the-yellow-tag

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How is it the OP knows the fault is in the indicator and not the pitot static system? If the airplane has been sitting that long something could have crawled in there and molted/died/spawned progeny/tried vigorously to spawn progeny.

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You can remove your wing if you want but can’t return it to service without an A&P.  

Figure out the ADSB compliance now - if you’re dumping  money into any avionics it should be 2020 compliant.  It’s savings in the long run as labor will be 50% or more of the equipment cost   

A non WAAS 430 has less value if you decide to sell at any point in the next 5-10 years.  The price delta can be much lower than the Garmin upgrade if you buy used but you get a refurb and a small warranty with the Garmin upgrade path. 

Figure out if it’s the plumbing or the AS instrument. You can have your asi hooked directly to the test equipment to determine which it is.  Costs about $200 to have an ASI IRANd.   

Used part 91 avionics can be installed by a repair station with no 8310. However most shops will demand an 8130 either as a cya for traceability or because they don’t want you complaining to them that the shop broke the perfectly good eBay find of unknown pedigree and want them to fix it on their dime blaming the install rather than the equipment.  The 8130 is like a meaningless insurance policy for future squabbling.  

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21 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

You can remove anything you like, but need a licensed mechanic to install, or supervise you doing the work.

Technically, any work that is completed must be signed off by an A&P.  Removing equipment falls under that category.  Also, the weight and balance should be updated and signed off by an A&P. 

But I get your point, and have known many owners who would remove old radios and wires and simply tell their A&P/IA what they did when their next Annual came up.  They would document it then.  (I may have done that myself before I got my certificate.)

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Matt,

Part of a pitot static test is testing the ASI... (airspeed indicator...)

Local Mechanic can Test it.

If you know it isn’t working properly.... time to do something to get it working...

While you are at it.

Meet and get to know your local mechanic... he can show you how to clean out some of the stuff collecting in the lines.... and oil changes and a bunch of other questions that will come up....

If you go and have your ASI OH’d... a proper company can screen print a new face on it to make it look brand new with all the proper markings from your plane’s latest POH which might be from 1977....

ASI challenges are a bit fuzzy... the back-up is the stall speed indicator, make sure it is working properly...

In a new to you plane, there isn’t enough room for errors...

Without knowing the ASI is working properly, that room is even smaller than expected...

As for the transponder issue... 2020 is coming.  Don’t spend a lot on fixing the old narco to have to go ADSB out....

see @Alan Fox for some used transponder ideas... he is the grim reaper of planes and avionics shops...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI... or mechanic... or doctor of philosophy...

Best regards,

-a- 

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ASI, check tubing and fittings first. I don't think I have ever seen a broken ASI that we didn't actually break. It's always been either old cracked lines, old cracked fittings, or loose lines. Can't believe I should say this, but, don't shoot compressed air into the pitot system or ASI, you will surely blow it up. Sad to say, I've seen it happen!

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Congrats on your Mooney purchase.  I re-did my panel over time and EBay was used for a lot of avionics.  I just removed and sold on EBAY a fully functional AT50A.  We updated to get ADSB compliant (taking advantage of rebate from FAA).  We had our airspeed indicator refurbed.  Shops advertise in the old yellow aviation newspaper.  The price was not over $500.  I would just buy an inexpensive replacement transponder and have airspeed refurbished.  Checking pitot static is, of course, a great suggestion for a plane that has been sitting.  I would NEVER pay for a non-wass GPS install nowadays, but that is just me...

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7 hours ago, tangogawd said:

ASI, check tubing and fittings first. I don't think I have ever seen a broken ASI that we didn't actually break. It's always been either old cracked lines, old cracked fittings, or loose lines. Can't believe I should say this, but, don't shoot compressed air into the pitot system or ASI, you will surely blow it up. Sad to say, I've seen it happen!

Never say NEVER.  Ours was off in our ‘66 E.

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On 7/7/2018 at 2:36 PM, carusoam said:

Matt,

Part of a pitot static test is testing the ASI... (airspeed indicator...)

Local Mechanic can Test it.

If you know it isn’t working properly.... time to do something to get it working...

While you are at it.

Meet and get to know your local mechanic... he can show you how to clean out some of the stuff collecting in the lines.... and oil changes and a bunch of other questions that will come up....

If you go and have your ASI OH’d... a proper company can screen print a new face on it to make it look brand new with all the proper markings from your plane’s latest POH which might be from 1977....

ASI challenges are a bit fuzzy... the back-up is the stall speed indicator, make sure it is working properly...

In a new to you plane, there isn’t enough room for errors...

Without knowing the ASI is working properly, that room is even smaller than expected...

As for the transponder issue... 2020 is coming.  Don’t spend a lot on fixing the old narco to have to go ADSB out....

see @Alan Fox for some used transponder ideas... he is the grim reaper of planes and avionics shops...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI... or mechanic... or doctor of philosophy...

Best regards,

-a- 

We sold ours for under $250 on EBay....

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Thanks all for the replies.   I am working with an A&P but just wondering what all beyond an A&P would be required to sign off for the avionics stuff, also he is very cool with me working along side him to assist as he knows I don't get in his way.  I'm researching and learning a bunch because as an engineer with electronics background I get how some of this stuff works and it is exciting to learn about the stuff I don't know (which is a lot!)

We do know its the airspeed indicator because we had an avionics contact pull it and check the Pitot-static for the IFR cert and he told us....so we'll go ahead and overhaul it.

Looks like in addition we will need a new or replacement fuel sender - one of them is grounding to the chassis - so if anyone has an old fuel sender collecting dust let me know.

I'll be talking with the avionics guy more about the garmin stuff and panel.  sounds like even if I wanted to change to a new transponder we might as well open up the whole panel and put in the wiring for the garmin gps/nav/com/audio panel/new ADSB transponder/etc and start designing a new panel layout $$$$$.

Regarding the WAAS/Non-Waas - let's say that I am ok with LNAV/VNAV approaches at best - what else would I want the WAAS for? (totally noob question since I am not IFR yet)

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18 minutes ago, sdflysurf said:

Thanks all for the replies.   I am working with an A&P but just wondering what all beyond an A&P would be required to sign off for the avionics stuff, also he is very cool with me working along side him to assist as he knows I don't get in his way.  I'm researching and learning a bunch because as an engineer with electronics background I get how some of this stuff works and it is exciting to learn about the stuff I don't know (which is a lot!)

We do know its the airspeed indicator because we had an avionics contact pull it and check the Pitot-static for the IFR cert and he told us....so we'll go ahead and overhaul it.

Looks like in addition we will need a new or replacement fuel sender - one of them is grounding to the chassis - so if anyone has an old fuel sender collecting dust let me know.

I'll be talking with the avionics guy more about the garmin stuff and panel.  sounds like even if I wanted to change to a new transponder we might as well open up the whole panel and put in the wiring for the garmin gps/nav/com/audio panel/new ADSB transponder/etc and start designing a new panel layout $$$$$.

Regarding the WAAS/Non-Waas - let's say that I am ok with LNAV/VNAV approaches at best - what else would I want the WAAS for? (totally noob question since I am not IFR yet)

Find out what the errors were on the ASI, i.e., what the differences will be between what it was and will now indicate.   Mine read 15 kts high at low airspeed, and is now back to accuracy standards.   I've had to learn how to land it all over again.   I was kinda doing it by feel before, as I figured the ASI was reading too high.

You will need a WAAS source somewhere for ADS-B-out compliance.   Depending on how you plan to get compliant, if you do, that may make a difference in equipment choices.

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