Jump to content

Will I need any Transition Training?


MBDiagMan

Recommended Posts

I have over 100 hours in my C.  Due to a shoulder injury that prevents use of the Johnson Bar, I am moving to a beautiful F that has been gone through by Don Maxwell.  It is very much a J with the 201 windshield, cowl and rear window.  Speedbrakes will also be new to me.

I flew a friends F a few weeks ago and landed it with no problem.  Maybe I was just lucky and maybe overconfident since he was ready to take the controls if necessary.

So..... do I need any transition training?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know everyone is different, but given the shoulder issue you’ve posted about I would suggest flying with someone who can give you some objective feedback on your performance in the new plane, given your temporary limitations. I’m not an AME, but from what you’ve described I don’t think I would fly a plane without another person qualified to act as PIC until the issue was resolved. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I was looking at a change from a J to an R I actually met the underwriter from Old Republic- he said all I would need is a checkout- nothing more. When I actually bought the A36 all I required was a checkout.  I had ~450 hrs in the J.

Biggest concern I would have is your ability to perform a manual gear extension with your shoulder injury. It’s a different motion than the J bar so perhaps it’s not a concern.  It’s not my area of expertise so I’ll express the concern and promptly shut up if it had been considered and addressed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I was looking at a change from a J to an R I actually met the underwriter from Old Republic- he said all I would need is a checkout- nothing more. When I actually bought the A36 all I required was a checkout.  I had ~450 hrs in the J.
Biggest concern I would have is your ability to perform a manual gear extension with your shoulder injury. It’s a different motion than the J bar so perhaps it’s not a concern.  It’s not my area of expertise so I’ll express the concern and promptly shut up if it had been considered and addressed.


The manual extension on a an F is a crank on the left side. I think his shoulder issue is limited to his right arm.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have over 100 hours in my C.  Due to a shoulder injury that prevents use of the Johnson Bar, I am moving to a beautiful F that has been gone through by Don Maxwell.  It is very much a J with the 201 windshield, cowl and rear window.  Speedbrakes will also be new to me.
I flew a friends F a few weeks ago and landed it with no problem.  Maybe I was just lucky and maybe overconfident since he was ready to take the controls if necessary.
So..... do I need any transition training?


There isn’t much difference between the short and mid bodies. The biggest transition will be getting used to the new power settings, fuel flow and the new gizmos you might have.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm also going to say that if you're comfortable with the slight changes in systems, go for it.  You already know the wing and the flight characteristics.  Maybe a slight difference in landing characteristics (elevator feel) due to the position of the H-stab with regard to center of lift, but nothing major.  You might also get a bigger rudder, which would be nice...

If you have fancy new avionics in it do some hangar flying or get an instructor or safety pilot to allow you to fiddle and learn them; also take it easy doing VFR with any new or fancy boxes before flying IFR.  I recently got to ride along in @Bob_Belville's awesome E.  His panel is amazing but differs from mine significantly and I felt like it was definitely his house and would require a lot of time to feel comfortable with all the gadgets.

YMMV and have fun.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, kpaul said:

@Bob_Belville did you notice any difference flying/landing the F VS your E?

Bob recently flew my F during a Mooney Caravan training (he didn't want to get his new paint dirty:D)

@bradp and @Marauder pretty much nailed it. The planes fly about the same but panel layout differences take more time to get comfortable with. (I landed KP's F w/o flaps - formation clinic - which I seldom do routinely but it seemed to be no different.) My E has a short rudder but frankly I have never felt limited by that. Landings in a Mooney in a string cross wind is not a big deal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Only you can answer whether you "need" transition training. Only your insurer can answer whether it requires transition training.

Aside from that, there's the question of what is meant by "transition training." They can be as complex as full-blown course or as simple as a few "confirmation" maneuvers and a few landing.

As an instructor, I've seen pilots who get discombobulated by very small differences, and others who can hop into a brand new type and pass a flight review and IPC. Only you know where on that spectrum you fit.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Only you can answer whether you "need" transition training. Only your insurer can answer whether it requires transition training.

Aside from that, there's the question of what is meant by "transition training." They can be as complex as full-blown course or as simple as a few "confirmation" maneuvers and a few landing.

As an instructor, I've seen pilots who get discombobulated by very small differences, and others who can hop into a brand new type and pass a flight review and IPC. Only you know where on that spectrum you fit.

Makes perfect sense.

From all this I expect that I will end up doing a little flying with Don when I pick it up and be good to go.

Thanks for all the responses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With several hundred hours in my C, a friend needed someone to fly his F. The biggest difference I remember was landing--my C has infinitely variable flaps (hold the switch and they move until reaching the stops or I let go), his F had 3-position flaps with a slider. I usually land my C with Takeoff flaps or a smidgen or two more, but the F lands much better with Full flaps. There was little difference in the V speeds, but they will be higher than yours with manual gear and hydraulic flaps.

Go fly and have fun!

Welcome to the electric side . . . . .   ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The F I am buying has hydraulic flaps as does my C, so I expect to feel at home in that area.  I am a tail wheel pilot and don’t use flaps a lot anyway.  On a visual approach I don’t adjust the sync rate with the power either.  After gradually powering down during descent, I more or less, just chop the power and glide it in.  I am not a very sophisticated pilot.  I say that and I do use power to adjust sync rate when on an approach.

There is one difference I have thought about a lot is the gear.  With the Johnson Bar the position of the gear is glaringly obvious.  I do have a habit of checking multiple times for a green light though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had about thirty hours in an Arrow and then did two hours to transition to a Mooney, which I thought was adequate.   I don't think transitioning from a C to an F would involve much more than sorting out differences in equipment operation, if any.   But, as others have mentioned, different people adapt differently, so at a minimum I'd suggest to not go outside your own comfort zone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m curious— Why not fly the C from the right seat and run the Johnson bar left handed?    
Assuming the copilot side has brakes everything else is in reach.  


Was covered earlier in the thread, no brakes on that side.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is it a need or a want..?

TT is not an FAA requirement...

TT may be an insurance requirement...

If you are buying a plane from one of the greatest Mooney knowledgeable people on the planet.... See if you can get an hour or two thrown in with the deal... even if it costs extra?

I had a year off from flying...

getting back into flying I started IR training in a C172...  TT took an hour or two...

After the IR, I bought the O...

1k hours in the C, a freshly minted IR in the C172...

A huge dissapointment with my first landings and everything else with the LB...

The first day usually has a lot of mental exhaustion involved in it...

Everything comes together on the second day...

So... expect two days of TT... one to go through all the details, and a second to demonstrate some nicely rested skills...

One thing that really would help... get the POH and all the manuals... do all the reading in advance...

This is all PP experience, that came before learning to fly again... :)

Best regards,

-a-

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don Maxwell told me that he would fly with me.  I really don’t think it will take much for me to feel comfortable with her.  I watched Don fly her this morning for the first time since the restoration.  I had to leave before he came back, but she sounded and looked wonderful.  Can’t wait until he finishes the avionics swap and I can take delivery.

This has been more than finding an airplane to buy.  Don and Janet as well as the others in the shop I have talked to, are really gracious and good people.  They are an extreme pleasure to deal with.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

Don Maxwell told me that he would fly with me.  I really don’t think it will take much for me to feel comfortable with her.  I watched Don fly her this morning for the first time since the restoration.  I had to leave before he came back, but she sounded and looked wonderful.  Can’t wait until he finishes the avionics swap and I can take delivery.

This has been more than finding an airplane to buy.  Don and Janet as well as the others in the shop I have talked to, are really gracious and good people.  They are an extreme pleasure to deal with.

I am of the opinion that it never hurts to watch someone else fly or have someone else watch you fly. In my job(s) I have the opportunity to do both on nearly every trip, and there is much to be learned - either "I like that technique" or "I'll try to never do that". Fly a couple of hours with someone whose opinion you value and go from there, unless the insurance company has another view of it. If they do, their opinion trumps mine.

Patrick

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

An hour or two with DMax!

That is bucket list worthy.

Just the conversation is worthy without even flying...

OK, last conversation I had with DMax was really interesting... we were reviewing the results of the PPI of my O...

Lots o detail. Be ready to take some notes if able...

Best regards,

-a-

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/5/2018 at 11:17 PM, MBDiagMan said:

I have over 100 hours in my C.  Due to a shoulder injury that prevents use of the Johnson Bar, I am moving to a beautiful F that has been gone through by Don Maxwell.  It is very much a J with the 201 windshield, cowl and rear window.  Speedbrakes will also be new to me.

I flew a friends F a few weeks ago and landed it with no problem.  Maybe I was just lucky and maybe overconfident since he was ready to take the controls if necessary.

So..... do I need any transition training?

Not sure what kind of answer you're looking for and from whom. That's a question only you can answer. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.