QUESTION: M20E Vs M20F

[Jpflysdfw]

I’m looking to replace my current airplane with an M20F. The more I’ve contemplated the more I’m second guessing myself, regarding the F.  My heart tells me the larger fuel tanks, useful load and more room in the backseat in the F is the right answer.  My brain tells me the reality is the front left seat and occasionally the front right seat will constitute 95% of the missions.  I’ve noticed the controls are quite heavy in a Mooney, relative to my Tiger, but actually see that as a positive thing in IMC and flight stability.  I can literally breath on my yoke and find myself in a turn!   A solid IFR platform is a must. My question is: from a handling, stability and IFR platform perspective, is there any appreciable difference between an E and an F?  Secondarily, are there any significant upsides or downsides from one model versus the other?

I’m looking for sage advise and experience, from this group,  to help this Mooney newbie.  Jeff

[Guitarmaster]

The "E" is the hot-rod of the bunch.  200HP and the short-body.  The "F" is 10" longer (mid-body),  MUCH more comfortable in the rear seats and sports a bigger baggage pit.  The "F" is about five knots slower, but more pitch stable.  Mine is a GREAT IFR platform.  What the Tiger is to sport, the Mooney is to speed, stability and efficiency.   

The systems of the Mooney are about as simple as it gets for a complex airplane.  In addition, it is IMHO the strongest single-engine airplane out there.  One-piece spar and a rollcage makes it hard to beat for safety.  

I love my Mooney, but I will be selling shortly.  With two teen-age boys, we have outgrown the Mooney and are looking at a Cessna 310.  

What the Mooney offers for the price is really hard to beat.  Good luck in your search!!  

@Marauder  has a very nice "F" that he has owned for some 27ish years and @Bob_Belville has arguably the nicest "E" on the planet.  Both are great resources for those models.

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Guitarmaster

[carusoam]

JEFF this site covers the idiosyncrasies of every Mooney ever built...

What it doesn’t cover is how you like every mooney ever built...

Or how your choices may change through your life... which may have decades to go....

Do you have a time frame in mind...

The E makes a perfect retirement Mooney...

Nothing in the circle of life should be longer than retirement...  

realistically, I started with two kids and a C... fit really well for a decade.

I was looking for a more updated plane for IFR flight...

a J was making a lot of sense....

The economy threw things in a different direction...

I came home with an M20R...

The whole line of Mooneys flys enough the same to appreciate for all the same reasons... the speed and performances are all different enough that Transition Training just makes sense too...

how long is your vision?

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[Bob_Belville]

Jeff, given your mission, you can't go wrong with either an E or an F. There are not that many examples of either that come on the market with desirable engine time, avionics, and appearance. I would not narrow my search by model and hope to find either one that I like.

(My E now has 64 gallon bladders. But it is true that the E was only 52 gallons as standard.)

[Marauder]

As Bob pointed out you can’t go wrong with either model for your expected flying. I’m really happy with my F and have been for many many years.




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[carusoam]

^^^ Jeff, that is clearly a plane that is perfect for the pilot....! (Referring to Bob’s M20E)

It says so on the tail...  

The pictures of the happy co-pilot indicate a plane that is perfect for the copilot too...

There are even pictures of four adults flying around in that same E.

Tough choices lay ahead...

Enjoy the hunt!

If you enjoy hunting research... go visit All American in TX... they often have several different Mooneys to try on for size...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Bob_Belville]

7 minutes ago, carusoam said:

^^^ Jeff, that is clearly a plane that is perfect for the pilot....! (Referring to Bob’s M20E)

It says so on the tail...  

The pictures of the happy co-pilot indicate a plane that is perfect for the copilot too...

 

-a-

 

The co-pilot has her say on her side of the tail...

[carusoam]

Bob,

You two are perfect airpeople! (Modern for perfect airmen?)

A great two person crew, operating a great plane.

The paint scheme is spectacular!  Modern and flowing.

Best regards,

-a-

[steingar]

There’re are really three questions. One, how tall are you?  Two, how often do you actually use the back seat? And three, how tall are your pals?

I’m ..., er,....ah,... call it vertically challenged. Mrs. Steingar is similarly of petite proportions. Hence even with the diminutive seat in the Mooney there is still plenty of room for passengers of our proportions.  Throw in a coupe of tall people...

Me, I’d keep the Tiger. Mooney-ish speeds with the same engine and the gear welded down is quite a thing. And you can leave the canopy open on hot days. With the heat wave we’ve got going on here that’s a big selling point. Lots of guys fly IFR in Tigers.

[gsxrpilot]

Either the E or the F will be a much more stable IFR platform than your Tiger. But comparing the two, the F is much more stable than the E (when adults [weight] are in the back seat). With the back seat empty, the E and F will be equally stable in IMC.

@Bob_Belville is correct that you're best to just find the best E OR F you can afford/find and buy it. They aren't making any more of them. 

For my money, and only filling the back seats 5% of the time, I'd prefer the E. Specifically @Bob_Belville's E, but there's already quite a waiting list on that one.

[Alan Fox]

I have owned both , E is a little more pitchy than the f, but the F is just a larger more substantial airframe...…    Both great airframes ,  These are more stable than your Tigre , but no more stable than most 2700 pound aircraft....

[Bob_Belville]

4 minutes ago, Alan Fox said:

I have owned both , E is a little more pitchy than the f, but the F is just a larger more substantial airframe...…    Both great airframes ,  These are more stable than your Tigre , but no more stable than most 2700 pound aircraft....

The E (and the C) are only 2575 gross vs. what, 2400, for the Tiger? The F is 2740.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

The E (and the C) are only 2575 gross vs. what, 2400, for the Tiger? The F is 2740.

It's not just weight, it's also wing loading and control pushrods instead of cables . . . .

My C does my wife and I quite well, and my 6' 200 lb self took 3 adult male pax up the NC coast to Kitty Hawk. Doing W&B, I was limited to 34 gals (of 52), which is still enough for almost 4 hours flight, or 3 hours plus IFR reserves. Two of my wife's cousins were >200 (yes, I asked when we were talking about going). I have pictures on the desktop, not on my phone any more. 

[glafaille]

Think carefully!  

I too own a Tiger, ended up with it after an unsuccessful search for a Mooney.

in my opinion, the F is not a big step up from a Tiger.  The backseat room in the Tiger is generous, maybe more than the F, plus the backseat folds down in the Tiger giving a lot of room for STUFF.  

The canopy and visibility on the Tiger are also nice and a godsend in the summer.  

The F will give you just a bit more speed depending on mod status, but will cost more in maintenance and insurance.  The F may save you a bit on fuel over the Tiger.  The useful load on my Tiger is right at 900 lbs which seems pretty good to me, not sure about the F.

I’ve flown plenty of IFR in theTiger and find it quite suitable but I have an Stec 30 autopilot that works very well.  A good autopilot is essential for IFR these days no matter what plane you have.

Are you sure the hassle of selling one to buy the other is worth it?  

If I sold my Tiger I would be looking at a J model or Bonanza to make it worth the hassle.

Edited July 3, 2018 by glafaille

[McMooney]

I will say, I absolutely love my E n97106V.

will absolutely fit 3 people, pilot and 2 passengers, i'm really not sure of 4; mooneyspace swears it can be done 8)

depending on the air, the plane is absolutely stable, my cfii always swears I have the autopilot on.

flies faster with weight in the back , it's stupidly nose heavy.  

super easy to land with very robust landing gear, don't ask.  My only wish, better avionics and maybe long range tanks.

[Jpflysdfw]

Wow, thanks so much for all the great input and insights.   So to answer some of the questions, this is the “ close to retirement” phase so no anticipation of upsizing or downsizing in the future. This is expected to be my first and last Mooney.  The Tiger is about 1400 empty and 2400 gross (52gal tanks). So realistically, when I’m flying local and solo am probably partial gas and closer to 1800+#.  The Tiger has many great advantages which is what drew me in in the first place. Two seconds to open the cowl and have full access to the engine compartment for pre-flight, dead simple easy maintenance, quick/agile handling, easy ingress/egress and as  @glafaille pointed out insane visibility and fold down seats in the back offers huge utility.  The downside for me is in order to have the airplane I’d be happy ( or happier) with will require an IFR capable GPS (GTN or similar), ADSB, a decent Eng Monitor and  AP (Stec 30/50/60).  Depending on how crazy one goes, that’s $25-50k and downtime. I’ve concluded that buying something with some/many of those features is a better plan for me. Add to that more stable and faster just seems to be win/win (yes higher annuals and insurance)

@Bob_Belville thanks for the input. Also,  that E is absolutely stunning!  Btw, how extensive of a mod is it to go from 52g to 64g bladders?

@Guitarmaster getting insight from a current F owner is much appreciated.  What timeline on selling your F?

@carusoam in a perfect world, I’d go for the J too but just can’t justify tieing that much cash up in a non-essential toy.  I am, however envious of the modest bump up to an R. Also, I have been in touch with All American about helping me find a plane that fits my mission, Jimmy has been very helpful/accommodating..

@Marauder agree, I absolutely will be looking for transitionraining and hopefully can find someone here local to DFW. If anyone has a good recommendation, I’m all ears.

@gsxrpilot Paul, as you Bob both point out, buy the best airplane you can. I made that mistake with my Tiger and regret not letting someone else foot the bill for an avionics upgrade.  If I had, I likely wouldn’t be shopping for another airplane, and I’d like to not repeat that again.

@Alan Fox I truly appreciate perspective from someone who has not just flown both but actually owned both. Sounds like ur nod goes to the F, but only slightly. I also understand you have quite a reputation for “saving Mooney’s that may have been written off” Good on you!

@Hank hadn’t really considered the C, largely because of inability to lean lop and potential carb ice and +20hp is not a bad thing.  Any icing issues since you’ve owned her? 

 

Last question, is there any known standard mods that allow folding down back seats or easily removing them for more storage (ie large dog crate)

Thanks again for all the great feedback,

Jeff

 

 

[Bob_Belville]

2 hours ago, Jpflysdfw said:

 

@Bob_Belville thanks for the input. Also,  that E is absolutely stunning!  Btw, how extensive of a mod is it to go from 52g to 64g bladders?

Thanks again for all the great feedback,

Jeff, to get 64 gallons in an E requires bladders. The STC holder is Griggs in Tunkhannock PA. There are several threads on MS on bladders since many Mooneys develop fuel leaks over the years and owners choose patching, resealing, or bladders. 

http://www.griggsaircraft.com/fabrication/mooney_bladders

 

 

 

[Hank]

@Jpflysdfw, I've had my C now for 11 years. When icing is forecast, I rethink flying; when it's in PIREPS, I stay on the ground.

Oh, you meant carb ice! No trouble ever. I do have the "optional" Carb Temp gage, which I highly recommend; based on it, I've used partial carb heat in the clouds 2 or 3 times, it just requires releaning. I use carb heat once per flight, a quick functional test after engine start. My TAS is generally in the high 140s, knot-wise, on 9 gph block time (no fuel flow). My 52 gallons is good for 5-1/2 hours, and I've landed after 4:45 twice with 11-12 galons aboard.

Some Mooneys have folding back seats from the factory (mine does!  ), some have added it by STC and others are still waiting to be converted.

Enjoy your search, and find a loved, well-maintained Mooney, whichever model you end up with.

[Shiny moose]

I have a 67F twisted wing. 1000 useful load, 64 gal fuel, 150+ TAS @ less than 10GPM cruise 62-65% power (first hour 12) the extra 10 inches makes a difference with someone in the back seat during a long trip. 

Make sure you have comfortable hanger space for the added wingspan of a Mooney compared to the Grumman, you will gain 5 ft or so with a Mooney 

[wcb]

The one thing I have not seen (which is unusual for this very generous crowd) is the offer to come have a look.  Where are you located as I know a ton of folks here are happy to talk about and SHOW off their Mooney's.  I have had a C and now a 76 F (with TN [RayJay Turbo Normalized).  If you could find a E or an F with a LoPresti Cowl, 201 Windshield, TN and the right price (THAT WOULD BE THE TICKET - Sadly that combo does not exist).  The next best would be a F model with upgraded 201Cowl, 201 Windshield and TN (which would almost make it TN - J), but priced lower than the same thing in a J.

 @Guitarmastergetting insight from a current F owner is much appreciated.  What timeline on selling your F?

By the way if his hits the market remember it has the long awaited Sabre Cowl   

And @Alan Fox may still have a highly modified F for sale which would be very desirable.

Edited July 3, 2018 by wcb

[Yetti]

Some later model Fs have a split rear seat where the backs can be folded or removed.   There is a mod to make the rear bench seats fold down in other models.   While the controls feel heavier, the control rods let you fly it with a thumb and one other finger on the yoke.  

 

I am going to pass on the other 5% of you plane flying without front seat people.   Seems a bit large to be making autonomous

[Jpflysdfw]

@Bob_Belville Thanks for the info on the bladders. I checked with Griggs today to get an idea on price.  They are quite proud of those little buggers!

@Hank Encouraging input on the carb ice.  Also, glad to know there’s a rear seat mod option, very helpful.  Now I just have to find the STC info and/or specifics on the associated mod.

@Shiny moose good call on the wing span, I hadn’t assessed that previously. I compared the two and there is a 3 1/2’ difference so I should be fine.

@wcb agree, the 201 cowl and windshield are absolutely upgrades I would prefer.  For aesthetics as much as speed/cooling. BTW, I’m north of DFW and hanger in Denton Tx.  I welcome any and all opportunity to pick any current/local Mooney owners brain in person or find an opportunity for a show ‘n tell.  

@Yetti Thanks, Split rear seats...my list of wants seems to be getting longer. Regarding controls, I actually think the heavier feel is a positive thing (less twitchy) for IMC.  

 

Thanks again, to all for sharing your thoughts and experiences.  I hope everyone has a safe and Happy 4th of July,

Cheers,

Jeff

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, Jpflysdfw said:

@Bob_Belville Thanks for the info on the bladders. I checked with Griggs today to get an idea on price.  They are quite proud of those little buggers!

Cheers,

Jeff

Jeff, there are several threads here on the merits of bladders vs. sealed tanks. Folks that like bladders like them as a solution that you only need to do once whereas...

Bladders cost less than 2 complete reseals by one of the trusted specialty shops. And it is the only way to get 64 gallons in a short body.

[Jpflysdfw]

Thanks Bob. Presuming a reseal were required anyway, that certainly opens up a nice range improvement option and adds appeal to an E.  If I could find one close to as nice as yours....I’d be all set!! Jeff

[carusoam]

Jeff, have no fear...

There have been tougher times before.

Today,

We have various suppliers for re-sealing tanks.

Better knowledge of how to strip tanks.

What chemicals to use.

What Procedures to avoid.

Enough knowledge that some people have stripped and sealed their own tanks.  Without being a pro mechanic themselves...

 

When it comes to fuel bladders Griggs has a long established history... that has been recently even improved upon....

There is plenty of good experience with both re-seal and bladders...

Modern materials make a huge difference...

An old seal job may not make it 30 years... but a new seal job, done properly, can go the distance...

My tanks seal is going on it’s third decade...

 

The biggest challenges of the past were lots of unknowns...

And no way to check into the answers...

You have MS!

Best regards,

-a-