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Planning for en-route ATC frequencies?


ShuRugal

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There are route briefs available like “Moostro” that some airline pilots purchase. They are printed yoke sized tablets with a page for each leg of the pilot’s schedule showing standard routes, frequencies and other pertinent info. The info evidently has been collected over years of pilots flying those routes ... and the subscribers help keep it updates by submitting changes. I think it’s all overkill ... I’ve never used it. But some guys like to feel “over-prepared.”
Knowledge is power ... I guess? I can understand a low time pilot wanting to plan more intensively than a pilot who has flown the routes for years or has years of experience operating IFR in our ATC system. Sorry [mention=16465]ShuRugal[/mention] ... I shouldn’t have been so hard on you ... please accept my apology.
I do try to always monitor 121.5 on com number two. 
I accept, and thank you for the additional info.

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Great question that I never even thought to ask. I use the postage stamp frequency method on the VFR map in Foreflight. I have never really worried about frequencies with flight following. My experience so far (<300 hours) frequency changes have not been much of a surprise while listening to traffic in the area and their changes ahead of me. I have on occasion gone out of range because of work load for ATC or was forgotten about and just switched to the next frequency on the chart, ATC was ready for me at the new freq.

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As a CFI who specializes in IFR training I don't even think its the best question to ask. Sure, we always had IFR students provide expected approach frequencies for their IFR x-ctry flights. The purpose of this wasn't so much to provide all the frequencies they would need, as that impractical for TRACONs, but to be sure the pilot had the skills to look up a frequency. Given the resources available to us I see no value in putting together a frequency list:

  • For Center Frequency's, we have Nearest ATC frequency in our modern GPS's. For those that aren't that comfortable with their GPS, we still have the enroute map to look it up - but its a much slower process.
  • For TRACON frequencies, its not so easy. They aren't listed on IFR enroute charts. There are good reasons for this since the sector frequencies in use is very dynamic based on the amount of traffic and controllers working. Sectors merge as traffic decreases or manpower dictates. But TRACON or Approach Control frequencies are available in a few places. On VFR sectionals and TAC's, they are available where a VFR pilot would be entering the TRACON's airspace, at the outskirts - but nothing is published on maps for the middle of the TRACON's airspace. Nor are TRACONs included in the Nearest frequencies list. For the many different frequencies in use inside the TRACON, the best bet is too look for a nearby airport and either look an approach frequency on an approach for that airports or look at the list Airport frequencies for an Approach frequency for that Airport. You'll get very close if not the correct controller.
  • If you don't get the correct frequency the first time, getting one nearby that you can establish communications with will tell you whom to contact within a few seconds; often with a hand off too if you are talking to the right facility. 

So in my opinion as long as you know how to look up a good frequency, I see no value in spending time to generate a frequency list you should not need but should be able to look up should the need the arise. But these skills are important to the VFR pilot as well, especially on x-country flights where one might start with flight following with a TRACON for example, and then get dropped when leaving their airspace without a hand off. Yet with the need to re-acquire communications ahead very soon before entering class B or C airspace ahead. 

To me,  the bigger challenge in often landing  or departing  uncontrolled fields; often on an IFR flight plan. At such airports I want to query the Approach or Center as on how low I can be and still maintain comm. Both to cancel with them before a phone call will be required on the ground and to know when I can expect to re-acquire communications with them on departure. So I always ask and plan accordingly. No way to look that up.  

 

Edited by kortopates
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As a CFI who specializes in IFR training I don't even think its the best question to ask. Sure, we always had IFR students provide expected approach frequencies for their IFR x-ctry flights. The purpose of this wasn't so much to provide all the frequencies they would need, as that impractical for TRACONs, but to be sure the pilot had the skills to look up a frequency. Given the resources available to us I see no value in putting together a frequency list:
  • For Center Frequency's, we have Nearest ATC frequency in our modern GPS's. For those that aren't that comfortable with their GPS, we still have the enroute map to look it up - but its a much slower process.
  • For TRACON frequencies, its not so easy. They aren't listed on IFR enroute charts. There are good reasons for this since the sector frequencies in use is very dynamic based on the amount of traffic and controllers working. Sectors merge as traffic decreases or manpower dictates. But TRACON or Approach Control frequencies are available in a few places. On VFR sectionals and TAC's, they are available where a VFR pilot would be entering the TRACON's airspace, at the outskirts - but nothing is published on maps for the middle of the TRACON's airspace. Nor are TRACONs included in the Nearest frequencies list. For the many different frequencies in use inside the TRACON, the best bet is too look for a nearby airport and either look an approach frequency on an approach for that airports or look at the list Airport frequencies for an Approach frequency for that Airport. You'll get very close if not the correct controller.
  • If you don't get the correct frequency the first time, getting one nearby that you can establish communications with will tell you whom to contact within a few seconds; often with a hand off too if you are talking to the right facility. 
So in my opinion as long as you know how to look up a good frequency, I see no value in spending time to generate a frequency list you should not need and should be able to look should the need the arise. But these skills are important to the VFR pilot as well, especially on x-country flights where they might start with flight following with a TRACON for example, and then as leave their airspace they get dropped without a hand off but need to re-acquire communications ahead soon before the enter class B or C airspace ahead of them - when they were expecting a hand off.
To me be the bigger challenge in often landing  or departing  uncontrolled fields; often on an IFR flight plan. At such airports I want to query the Approach or Center as to how low I can be and still maintain comm to cancel with them before a call will be required on the ground and to know when I can expect to re-acquire communications with them on departure. So I always ask and plan accordingly. No way to look that up.  
 
Reading through everyone's responses, I think this one sums it all up nice an comprehensively. Thank you.

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On 6/29/2018 at 11:50 AM, RobertGary1 said:

Just for the initial call up frequency but what frequencies are actually being used depends on time of day, day of week, etc.

-Robert

Not entirely true. What frequency you get generally does not depend on time of day. In an approach control or center, when a sector is combined, due to lack of traffic or staffing, the controller working the combined sector still has to use the radio facilities that exist. Their console enables them to select frequencies they transmit on, but only a few frequencies cover a given area. Usually an unpublished frequency will be reserved for emergencies, and they have a standard frequency for routine use.  Whether you get center or approach control will depend on whether the approach is full time or part time, that is true. In general, most civil approach facilities are 24 hour, while many military are daytime only, unless military activities keep them open. How high you are flying will dictate whether approach control is involved or not.  In the flat lands many approach controls don't have airspace much above 10,000, while in mountainous areas and lower traffic areas it may go as high as 20,000.  The low enroute published frequency for a sector will almost always either be correct or at least have reception coverage that will get you to what they are using. If you regularly fly a route, you can count on getting the same frequencies 95% of the time. ATC simply does not pick frequencies out of a hat. Each remote transmitter is single frequency and for an approach will typically cover a 50 mile radius, as they are only 15 watts. Center transmitters cover often 100 miles or more, because they are 50 watt transmitters. (the approach transmitters were lowered from 50 to 15 by Nixon's energy conservation efforts).

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5 hours ago, kellym said:

Not entirely true. What frequency you get generally does not depend on time of day. In an approach control or center, when a sector is combined, due to lack of traffic or staffing, the controller working the combined sector still has to use the radio facilities that exist. Their console enables them to select frequencies they transmit on, but only a few frequencies cover a given area. Usually an unpublished frequency will be reserved for emergencies, and they have a standard frequency for routine use.  Whether you get center or approach control will depend on whether the approach is full time or part time, that is true. In general, most civil approach facilities are 24 hour, while many military are daytime only, unless military activities keep them open. How high you are flying will dictate whether approach control is involved or not.  In the flat lands many approach controls don't have airspace much above 10,000, while in mountainous areas and lower traffic areas it may go as high as 20,000.  The low enroute published frequency for a sector will almost always either be correct or at least have reception coverage that will get you to what they are using. If you regularly fly a route, you can count on getting the same frequencies 95% of the time. ATC simply does not pick frequencies out of a hat. Each remote transmitter is single frequency and for an approach will typically cover a 50 mile radius, as they are only 15 watts. Center transmitters cover often 100 miles or more, because they are 50 watt transmitters. (the approach transmitters were lowered from 50 to 15 by Nixon's energy conservation efforts).

I suspect the reason it varies so much is a combination of military vs civilian for time of day but also because a controller may not hand you off if the next freq is his at the moment and he has range. 

What I notice most areojnd bere is thst there are 3 frequencies shown on the charts for the area but in evening they’ll immediately hand you off on call up to the adjacent one and not use the one on the chart other than callups. During day they’re different controllers so they don’t hand you off. 

-Robert 

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On 6/29/2018 at 1:17 PM, David Herman said:

It’s called a “map.”

Technically true but I was taught to call it a chart.

I started making a frequency list for flights in word.  I never tried to get too many of the frequencies for centers since they seem to bounce around quite a bit.  When flying  B,C and D airspace it is generally easy to find the frequencies.  I will try to tune the next frequency in before ATC tells me.

While en-route waiting for the next center I will look at the chart and get the next postage stamp frequency.

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When I'm board on long cross countries I'll try to anticipate the next freq. I'll look it up on ForeFlight, check the IFD's freq listd, listen to other's getting the hand off, refer to prior experience, etc. Otherwise, just enter them as they come.

The problem I had was getting the number jumbled up in my head after reading them back followed by my N number. I found that repeating the freq in a different format solved that problem for me. If given "...on One Two Three decimal One Five" I'll respond "Twenty Three Fifteen". For some reason that solves it in my dyslexic head.

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On 6/29/2018 at 10:27 PM, Andy95W said:

I must be missing something here.  In 28 years of being a pilot, and 26 years of having an instrument rating and aircraft ownership, I never once felt the need to pre-plan what frequencies I may or may not get handed off to.  

And in probably 12,000 hours of IFR cross country flight I can count on one hand the number of times I've actually looked up the frequencies on the chart.

Seriously, what's the point and what aren't I getting?

Concur, seems like a lot of fuss for a low probably issue that’s easily resolved by basic airmanship if it happens.... 1) go to last assigned if you think you mis-heard the switch...2) if you think you were dropped or out of range or week radio, go to expected freq (postage stamp) - plenty of tools as already stated in Printed charts or ForeFlight, garmin products,etc.....3) monitor GUARD on radio 2....trust me, someone will call you if your flying IFR....either ATCC will or he will have someone relay....I have had been on the receiving end of both.

I think there are other higher priority areas to focus on during my pre-flight prep.....just my thought...

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