ADS-B / FlightAware question

[steingar]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

@steingar, it has nothing to do with ADS-B. FlightAware has been showing my flights ever since I got my license in 2007. They still show up, and I am not going to ASB-B up. So keep yer eyes peeled out the winder, cuz I ain't gonna show on your tablet, less'n you kin get realtime FlightAware updates in cruise . . . .

P.S.--it's handy for meeting people when traveling, they know when I will arrive.

For IFR traffic this has been the case for awhile. For VFR traffic it could be done, but only with some legwork and difficulty. However, with ADSB you are identified by a hexadecimal code. I can’t even fathom why I still have a code to squawk, other than bureaucratic inertia.

[Marauder]

[mention=14051]steingar[/mention], it has nothing to do with ADS-B. FlightAware has been showing my flights ever since I got my license in 2007. They still show up, and I am not going to ASB-B up. So keep yer eyes peeled out the winder, cuz I ain't gonna show on your tablet, less'n you kin get realtime FlightAware updates in cruise . . . .
P.S.--it's handy for meeting people when traveling, they know when I will arrive.

Typically the only flights before ADS-B or having a Mode S that would show up on FlightAware are the ones where you were worked by ATC either flight following or an IFR flight plan.

If you were tooling around with a Mode C and not talking to anyone, you wouldn’t show up on FlightAware.


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[steingar]

42 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

There’s absolutely nothing the FAA can do.  Your plane can be (and is) tracked by members of the public.  The only way you stop this is to disable your transponder.

Can you explain the mechanism behind this? I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that the FAA was the gatekeeper.

Things  have gotten worse and worse for GA. I’ve wanted to stay in, but this could at last be the cut that drives me out.  I should not have to sacrifice my privacy just to use my own personal property.

[Hank]

2 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

Typically the only flights before ADS-B or having a Mode S that would show up on FlightAware are the ones where you were worked by ATC either flight following or an IFR flight plan.

If you were tooling around with a Mode C and not talking to anyone, you wouldn’t show up on FlightAware.


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Yep, that's still my experience. Flight following or talk to Tower and I show up, just like "before." Mode C . . .

[Marauder]

My flight went well. The fact that I’m seeing my flight profile means I have to get back in touch with the FAA. I’ll leave that damn thing off before I let anyone casually track my movements. You have my thanks for demonstrating the flaws in my approach.
I've never used any kind of flight tracking software. I figure if someone wants to tell me about their flight they’re welcome to do so. I don’t think anyone needs me spying on their affairs. I try to respect the privacy of others. I only ask they do the same for me. I think this stinks to high heaven. I’ve spend a lot of my coin and a great deal of my time to try and obey the rules, and this is how I’m treated, my affairs laid open to anyone with a computer. And the FAA wonders why no one is installing ADSB.

The FAA shutoff is only done once a month. I turned it off fully once and then again with a partial shutoff (the FAA has 2 categories of data exports). I found out that FlightAware would let me look at my flight data for the lovely price of $70 per month. I turned it back on.

Even with the FAA data feed off, if you are in an area where these monitoring are done, it will show up on one of these sites.


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[gsengle]

Can you explain the mechanism behind this? I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that the FAA was the gatekeeper.

Things  have gotten worse and worse for GA. I’ve wanted to stay in, but this could at last be the cut that drives me out.  I should not have to sacrifice my privacy just to use my own personal property.

 

It’s unencrypted radio signals plus the internet. Here is a good example.

 

https://www.flightradar24.com/apply-for-receiver

 

Fyi same reason you can listen to liveatc.

 

Greg

 

ps you’d need to stop driving too, most places your license plate is read by computers multiple times a day. That’s assuming you don’t also have a toll transponder. Oh and let’s talk about your cell phone... or web use....

 

 

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[gsengle]

X

[gsxrpilot]

It's certainly not worth the trouble @steingar is going through on a losing proposition. I flew a long cross country this weekend. It's all on flight aware if you want to see it :-) But as this is a dangerous activity, it was nice for my wife, traveling in Europe and my kids on the east coast, to keep track of me and know I arrived safe. 

Going out and just using your own personal property would be correct if you're just flying low and slow in class G airspace. But when we take our speedy traveling machines and go play in the very public and heavily used airspace, we naturally give up the anonymity that we might have had if we stayed in our own backyard.

[steingar]

Just now, gsengle said:

 

It’s unencrypted radio signals plus the internet. Here is a good example.

https://www.flightradar24.com/apply-for-receiver

Fyi same reason you can listen to liveatc.

Greg


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Ig.  Thanks. But don’t they need the FAA at some level to tell the, which code belongs to which aircraft? If not where are they getting the information?

[Marauder]

Can you explain the mechanism behind this? I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that the FAA was the gatekeeper.
Things  have gotten worse and worse for GA. I’ve wanted to stay in, but this could at last be the cut that drives me out.  I should not have to sacrifice my privacy just to use my own personal property.

I think I read somewhere some of these monitoring activities were being done by the flight sim people who use real flights intermingled with their sim world.


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[gsxrpilot]

1 minute ago, gsengle said:

It’s unencrypted radio signals plus the internet. Here is a good example.

https://www.flightradar24.com/apply-for-receiver

Fyi same reason you can listen to liveatc.

 

Yep, I host a couple of LiveATC feeds out of my house. 

[Hank]

4 minutes ago, steingar said:

Can you explain the mechanism behind this? I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that the FAA was the gatekeeper.

The receiver in your plane picks up the ADB-B broadcast from other planes, and plots them (location, speed, direction) for you to see. And for anyone within range with a receiver. Even those with stationary receivers in the corner of their office, who like to put things online. The only way to "not show up" is to "not transmit," like me (because I'm cheap frugal and live / fly where don't need it).

[Hank]

4 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Yep, I host a couple of LiveATC feeds out of my house. 

Just like that, @steingar. ADS-B monitoring and posting online works just like that . . . Listen in to LiveATC sometime, select CMH Approach, you can hear your own voice . . . . Ain't technology great??? 

[Steve W]

29 minutes ago, steingar said:

Ig.  Thanks. But don’t they need the FAA at some level to tell the, which code belongs to which aircraft? If not where are they getting the information?

There are 2 codes. The call-sign which can be changed by you(depending on the unit) but usually defaults to your tail number. And a 24 bit (6 hex digit) code that is programmed in at install time. For the US the 24 bit code maps 1 to 1 with tail numbers(Enter: your_tail_number mode-s into google to see it). The only way to get rid of that transmission is to turn off your transponder or use a UAT unit with anonymous mode.

[N201MKTurbo]

45 minutes ago, steingar said:

Ig.  Thanks. But don’t they need the FAA at some level to tell the, which code belongs to which aircraft? If not where are they getting the information?

Go look up the registration info for your plane online. It will have your ADS-B out code. Anybody can find it.

[N201MKTurbo]

17 minutes ago, Steve W said:

There are 2 codes. The call-sign which can be changed by you(depending on the unit) but usually defaults to your tail number. And a 24 bit (6 hex digit) code that is programmed in at install time. For the US the 24 bit code maps 1 to 1 with tail numbers(Enter: your_tail_number mode-s into google to see it). The only way to get rid of that transmission is to turn off your transponder or use a UAT unit with anonymous mode.

I know for a fact that I can change both those codes in flight with the proper  buttonology. Just get the install manual for your transponder.

Im pretty sure squawking the wrong code is illeagle. Especially if you did it on purpose. The FAA inspector I was listening to reciently said that they will cut you a lot of slack if you do something accidentally or because of ignorance. If you do something on pourpose they will take every license you have and fine you to the fullest extent possible.

Edited June 26, 2018 by N201MKTurbo

[Hank]

9 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Im pretty sure squawking the wrong code is illeagle. Especially if you did it on purpose. The FAA inspector I was listening to reciently said that they will cut you a lot of slack if you do something accidentally or because of ignorance. If you do something on pourpose they will take every license you have and fine you to the fullest extent possible.

Another reason to live in the boonies and miss out on all that ADS-B stuff. Fewer neighbors to tick you off, too.  

Yes, I know my Mode C transponder broadcasts a unique code too, but it seems to not be fraught with these same issues.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Hank

[gsengle]

I know for a fact that I can change both those codes in flight with the proper  buttonology. Just get the install manual for your transponder.
Im pretty sure squawking the wrong code is illeagle. Especially if you did it on purpose. The FAA inspector I was listening to reciently said that they will cut you a lot of slack if you do something accidentally or because of ignorance. If you do something on pourpose they will take every license you have and fine you to the fullest extent possible.

And remember there are ways the “system” can automatically catch and flag the inconsistency should you try and do this.


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[EricJ]

12 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Im pretty sure squawking the wrong code is illeagle. Especially if you did it on purpose. The FAA inspector I was listening to reciently said that they will cut you a lot of slack if you do something accidentally or because of ignorance. If you do something on pourpose they will take every license you have and fine you to the fullest extent possible.

I've seen that stressed by the FAA guys at some recent Wings meetings, i.e., the difference between "inadvertent" and "intentional".   "Inadvertent" is unlikely to get you into too much trouble, "intentional" brings the hammer down.   Apparently they're busy enough dealing with the "intentional" guys, who are evidently far more numerous than I'd have thought, to want to waste much time on the "inadvertent" folks.

And with respect to the topic at hand, there is not much expectation of privacy in General Aviation, especially as compared to, say, a driver's license.   In AZ, somebody with a PI license or a LEO investigator can look up your identity, address, etc., from your automobile license plate, but the general public cannot.   In aviation, anybody can look up your tail number and get a relevant name and address, and then look up your licenses and status, etc.   As previously mentioned, the aircraft registration also includes the transponder code, so any code that comes along is not hard to match up with the appropriate airplane and then potentially the owner, their addy, license, etc.

So the bar for privacy in General Aviation is pretty much nonexistent, and that's not even considering the whole ADS-B thing.

If you have a Raspberry Pi running the Stratux software, you have nearly the same system (with much of the same software) that many people (including myself) use to sniff the ADS-B emissions of passing airplanes and pass them along to sites like Flightradar24 and FlightAware.   In addition to my Stratux I have a Raspberry Pi that's been running pretty much 24/7 on top of my refrigerator for several years that feeds those sites and a few others, and in return I get elevated access to those sites.   Sorry if I'm destroying somebody's expectation of privacy, but IMHO that's kinda the expectation set when airplane registrations and airman certificates are public record, anyway.   Nobody needs a warrant or even a PI license to get that, just a 'puter and an internet connection.   There are even sites for aviation photography enthusiasts where you can look up an N-number and possibly download a few pics of the airplane.   I got some pics of my airplane prior to my ownership that way.  So show up over somebody's house and they can get your tail number, name, addy, and maybe even a pic of your airplane on their 'puter in real time.   Click on an airplane icon in Flightrader24 and often a pic of the airplane comes up with the tail number, manufacturer, model, age, etc., etc.

If you really want to push it, since many or most ATC audio channels are also readily accessible, in real time and after the fact, it's not going to be that hard for recognition software to pick out your tail number (or anybody's tail number) if it is ever spoken on the radio.   ADS-B isn't even required to know in real time when you show up somewhere.

So in order to really go full Ted Kaczynski and drop off the aviation grid and still fly, you'll need to be nordo and stay out of any Mode C space or Class D space (lest they mention your tail number and give away your presence).   And don't let your ELT go off in a crash, 'cause that'll definitely give you away.

 

 

 

[steingar]

Yeah, this all makes sense, and probably should have occurred to me.  Phooey.  I really, really don't like it.  But I live at the edge of a Class C, and I fly into Bravos all the time.  That, and to go cross country in the East you're going to hit controlled airspace, there's no getting around it.  Unless you want to go around a lot of airports, you've got to have the ADSB.  At least it'll make things harder for the scofflaws.  But boy I don't like it.

[Bob_Belville]

Illusions of privacy in the 21st century. How quaint.

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[gsxrpilot]

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N252AD/history/20180624/1430Z/84R/KAPA

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N252AD

My quick trip to Denver and back. 

[Hank]

5 hours ago, steingar said:

Yeah, this all makes sense, and probably should have occurred to me.  Phooey.  I really, really don't like it.  But I live at the edge of a Class C, and I fly into Bravos all the time.  That, and to go cross country in the East you're going to hit controlled airspace, there's no getting around it.  Unless you want to go around a lot of airports, you've got to have the ADSB.  At least it'll make things harder for the scofflaws.  But boy I don't like it.

I generally cruise high enough to be over C & D space; ATL won't let me into the Bravo, and it goes to 12,500 so I doubt I'll go over it very often in my C. No scofflaw, just no need to squawk anything other than Mode C [which is easy enough to track anyway; I generally get flight following if going very far and have not filed IFR].

[steingar]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

I generally cruise high enough to be over C & D space; ATL won't let me into the Bravo, and it goes to 12,500 so I doubt I'll go over it very often in my C. No scofflaw, just no need to squawk anything other than Mode C [which is easy enough to track anyway; I generally get flight following if going very far and have not filed IFR].

The rules as I understand them are that you cannot overfly Charlies and Bravos without ADSB after 2020.  Overflying Bravos does take some doing, but I overfly lots of Charlies whenever I go anywhere, and I go through one half the time.  And I don't think you'll be able to file without ADSB after 2020.

For guys flying little puddle jumpers it might not be such a big deal.  But we fly travel machines, and its going to get old detouring around all that airspace all the time.  Moreover, if you haven't ADSB I doubt you'll be able to sell your aircraft easily come 2020.

[Marauder]

Take a look what was on FlightAware as an ad. Saw this today.

 

 

 

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