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Looking for budgetary numbers for J avionics total update


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Just now, Marauder said:

Might be. I already had an 830 installed so some of the work was already done.

Believe the connectors are pin compatible going from an 830 to a 900.  If you can buy the display without having to purchase the sensors that's a huge cost savings on the upgrade both equipment and labor.  That $4500 is probably the display plus a day of labor.

I'm budgeting ~9-10K to go from a JPI700 - a 900.

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Thats the part that blows my mind. Avionocs bill is from another shop. This was just my new panel work, edm900, and a few squaks from annual. His itemized list is back at the house. Ive blocked it out it ticks me off so badly.

OUCH! OUCH! OUCH! Based on $100 avionics shop rate that is $19,375 for labor. At $80 that is still $15,500. What did you have installed?


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3 minutes ago, smccray said:

I'm budgeting ~9-10K to go from a JPI700 - a 900.

I went from an EDM700 to EDM900. SWTA did the install which started by pulling all of the EDM700 out including all wiring and probes. Then the install of the EDM900. JD charged me for 20 hours. That might have included a "best customer" discount so don't expect the same. But I doubt it would be more than 40 hours for the install.

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4 minutes ago, NJMac said:

Thats the part that blows my mind. Avionocs bill is from another shop. This was just my new panel work, edm900, and a few squaks from annual. His itemized list is back at the house. Ive blocked it out it ticks me off so badly.

 

Well if he was trying to get out of the Mooney service business and never wants to see another Mooney in his shop... Mission Accomplished.

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Yep. I played it off like i was fine with the BS he was spewing. He has my log books. I just need those, my annual sign off, and my plane back and he'll only see me as i stop in a few times a week to pickup my instructor amd flash him the bird.

Well if he was trying to get out of the Mooney service business and never wants to see another Mooney in his shop... Mission Accomplished.


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5 minutes ago, smccray said:

The JPI 900 @ $4,500 looks light to me as a fresh install.  It's 40 hrs of labor to do the install plus the cost of the equipment.

In 12/12 I paid $5300, plus a few hundred dollars for incidentals, for the EDM 930 plus 36 hours labor. (The labor was reduced from 40 hours on the original quote based upon multiple units being installed at the same time.)

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I had the EDM installed with the avionics by the avionics shop and was completely satisfied but if I were doing it again and it was just the EDM I'd go with @AGL Aviation who has plenty of experience with JPIs. An A&P's hourly rate should be less than an avionics shop and the installation of the EDM is at least as much mechanical as electronic.

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Whats fair rates for these shops? Ohio here and avionics is 75 and A&P is 85

I had the EDM installed with the avionics by the avionics shop and was completely satisfied but if I were doing it again and it was just the EDM I'd go with [mention=14357]AGL Aviation[/mention] who has plenty of experience with JPIs. An A&P's hourly rate should be less than an avionics shop and the installation of the EDM is at least as much mechanical as electronic.


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28 minutes ago, NJMac said:

Thats the part that blows my mind. Avionocs bill is from another shop. This was just my new panel work, edm900, and a few squaks from annual. His itemized list is back at the house. Ive blocked it out it ticks me off so badly.

 


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I feel bad for you. Even at 40 hours to install the EDM, not sure how they came up with another 154 hours of labor. 

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Im not one to normally take the high road but my wife agrees we'll pay him off and just walk. Shes upset too.

I feel bad for you. Even at 40 hours to install the EDM, not sure how they came up with another 154 hours of labor. 


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14 minutes ago, NJMac said:

Im not one to normally take the high road but my wife agrees we'll pay him off and just walk. Shes upset too.
 

 

All education carries with it tuition. Lesson learned: on any repair or installation of anything, airplane or otherwise, get a firm quote first. If they don't agree to that, find someone who will. 

On a firm quote they have motivation to move along a good pace to get done to get paid. If they quoted low then the education is theirs. They will adjust that the next time they quote a similar job. With a time and materials deal they have motivation to stretch it out and keep getting paid. To keep a long term relationship working with a shop you both have to feel like you are getting a fair deal.

To get the full value of the education you have to realize that you agreed to time and materials, no one held a gun to your head. Rather than wasting energy on being mad at him, just take what you learned from it and move on.

One of the nice things about Mooneyspace is we all get the education on the tuition you paid. :)

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Believe the connectors are pin compatible going from an 830 to a 900.  If you can buy the display without having to purchase the sensors that's a huge cost savings on the upgrade both equipment and labor.  That $4500 is probably the display plus a day of labor.
I'm budgeting ~9-10K to go from a JPI700 - a 900.

Some of sensors are different, but CHT (not counting ring probe) and EGT probes are the same.
The calibration of fuel tank senders takes time and was a 2 person job.
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I had the EDM installed with the avionics by the avionics shop and was completely satisfied but if I were doing it again and it was just the EDM I'd go with [mention=14357]AGL Aviation[/mention] who has plenty of experience with JPIs. An A&P's hourly rate should be less than an avionics shop and the installation of the EDM is at least as much mechanical as electronic.

We performed a JPI930 on a 201J a couple of years ago. That included removal of existing engine monitor system and original equipment primary gauges. Also installed the 930 primary with fuel flow and quantity (which had to be calibrated). We performed the work in just under 67 man hours.


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I think EDM 900/930 installation labor should be closer to 60 hours than 40... perhaps an experienced shop can get close to 40, but I'd be wary. It is a lot of tedious effort! Combining with other work that has the interior panels out and panel open does help, though.

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8 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

I think EDM 900/930 installation labor should be closer to 60 hours than 40... perhaps an experienced shop can get close to 40, but I'd be wary. It is a lot of tedious effort! Combining with other work that has the interior panels out and panel open does help, though.

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I agree. I installed my 900 and it took me 55hrs.  If I were to do a second install I think I could shave off 5-10hrs, so experience helps.  But it is tedious, an extra 5hrs of labor is worth it to ensure a clean and tidy install. 

Cheers,

Dan

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21 hours ago, Stephen said:

 

I have a friend of mine who is looking for a high-end/clean J model and has been looking at mid-late J's in the 130-200K range. There isn't a lot available right now and what I am seeing even at 200K+ don't have quite as nice a panel as Chris's @Marauder (see the 1998 J model on Trade A Plane @$216 for instance). 

So, what I am looking for is what you guys thing it would cost to take a [steam gauge J with good Airframe and Engine/Prop, autopilot and speed brakes] and go to creampuff dual aspens, new radio stack( GTN or Garmin 530w) , JPI 9XX, good intercom, approach coupled to existing autopilot and Alpha AoA. For realistic numbers do you think $40-50K would get all that out the door installed? 

Stephen, no one has mentioned it yet, so I'll throw a wrench into the mix.

Given that liberal budget with a lot of range between the numbers, has your friend thought of looking at an Ovation?  There are a few on Controller in the $165k - $222k range...some of which have already upgraded panels.  I can't see spending the kind of money he wants to spend on a "J", and then having to put another ~50 - 75k (I'm guess-timating) into a panel makeover when he can have Ovation performance.

Again, just a thought...

Steve

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20 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

Stephen, no one has mentioned it yet, so I'll throw a wrench into the mix.

Given that liberal budget with a lot of range between the numbers, has your friend thought of looking at an Ovation?  There are a few on Controller in the $165k - $222k range...some of which have already upgraded panels.  I can't see spending the kind of money he wants to spend on a "J", and then having to put another ~50 - 75k (I'm guess-timating) into a panel makeover when he can have Ovation performance.

Again, just a thought...

Steve

Hi Steven,

Great thought. I initially suggested an Ovation and a J as the potential targets. My friend is, about a 130-150 (guesstimate) hr pilot with instrument rating.  Like I was when I started with my Mooney, he is rusty (hasn't flown in about 7-8 years) but is starting the process of comping up to speed. His  time to date has been PA-28/140 - 180 and (mostly) C182 fixed gear.   He is very bullish on training and tends to heavily invest in training and, in fact, dig to China when committed to a competency. If the search for a plane took 3 months to a year that would probably be fine...much more important to get the right airframe. The reason I asked about the J avionics upgrade *real-world* $$ is that it may be an answer if locating a high-finish, fully-updated, creampuff J is challenging 

Regarding the Ovation, I have gotten some repeat guidance that a J would probably be a better platform for a low time pilot than a long body. Mine is an F model, so I haven't flown a long body for comparison. Turbo is out due to not wanting to complicate the systems, expense scenario when almost 100% of the flying with be flatland.  Base on comparing UL on J's to Ovations, I think the O's are mostly a roominess and another 15 knots-isa. My buddy will probably fly 1-2 people, occasionally 3. Mostly around the midwest and possibly trips from the Midwest to the Southeast. Seems like a J would be adequate and very efficient for that mission  while minimizing MX costs. 

 

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21 hours ago, AGL Aviation said:


We performed a JPI930 on a 201J a couple of years ago. That included removal of existing engine monitor system and original equipment primary gauges. Also installed the 930 primary with fuel flow and quantity (which had to be calibrated). We performed the work in just under 67 man hours.


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Thanks Tamera, good to know. I suggested the EDM 900 to him but it looks to me like the systems must be highly similar from an installation LoE standpoint.

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A M20J will be more than enough airplane for now. It is very capable of the flight profiles you mention. I think you are on the right track.

I would suggest finding the plane that you are happy with and then dealing with upgrades based on what you get. Avionics are innovating rapidly. 

By the time you get the plane, find a hangar and the associated equipment, some training and a couple of pleasure flights new equipment will be available to choose from and the pilot will have a much better understanding of what/how to equip.

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9 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Hi Steven,

Great thought. I initially suggested an Ovation and a J as the potential targets. My friend is, about a 130-150 is (guesstimate) hr pilot with instrument rating.  Rusty, hasn't flown in about 7-8 years; time to date has been PA-28/140 - 180 and (mostly) C182 fixed gear.   He is very bullish on training and tends to training and dig to China when committed to a competency. He is going to start flying again and start to get some training time and come back up to speed. If search for a plane took 3 months to a year that would probably be fine. Much more important to get the right airframe. The reason I asked about the J avionics upgrade real-world $$ is that it may be an answer if get a high-finish, fully-updated, creampuff J is challenging 

Regarding the Ovation, I have gotten some repeat guidance that a J would probably be a better platform for a low time pilot than a long body. Mine is an F model, so I haven't flow a long body for comparison. Turbo is out due to wanting to complicate the systems, expense scenario when almost 100% of the flying with be flat land.  Base on comparing UL on J's to Ovations, I think the O's are mostly a roominess and another 15 knots-isa. My buddy will probably fly 1-2 people, occasionally 3. Mostly around the midwest and possibly trips from the Midwest to the Southeast. Seems like a J would be adequate and very efficient for that mission  while minimizing MX costs. 

  

For what it's worth, at that budget I would be looking at an Ovation rather than a J.  Most people looking for Js are looking at the low end of the budget range.  It's always better to buy a good example of any given model, but I would expect upgrades on a J to return less than upgrades on an ovation.  No doubt the Ovation is a step up from the J.  There are instructors around here who would have a better opinion than mine, but I suspect the transition to the Ovation is doable.  If it were me, I would buy the Ovation and plan a more robust / extensive transition rather than buying a J then upgrading in a few years.  The transition from a 172 to my M20J was hard.  The transition from the J to the A36 was simple.

$200K for an Ovation puts you in the ballpark of a G500 equipped 310 STC'd bird that already has the JPI installed.

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23 hours ago, Oldguy said:

@Marauder has some great advice above. I only have a few thoughts to add.

1. If given the choice of two fairly similar quotes (cost, time, quality, etc.) choose the one closest to your home base. Yes, I might have saved about 5-10% if I had gone to a competing avionics shop an hour or so away, but every time I would have had a problem in the future, I would have had the choice of flying (if possible) to get it worked on by the distant shop, or having the avionics shop on the field work on something they didn't install. I see these guys every time I am at the airport, and I have had them drop what they were doing to help me or a friend who had a small avionics problem.

2. (Expanding on #2 above) If you are doing panel upgrades in phases, do as much pre-wiring as possible the first time you have it opened up. Or as the old line goes, start with the end in mind.

3. If a shop says they will take credit cards, ask for a 3% discount for paying with a check.

4. As a supplement to #6 above, putting a USB charging outlet in front of the copilot never hurts. :)

Thanks Oldguy, sounds like great advice; will pass it on.

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As @Marauder said, if there's any chance you'll (your friend) sell the plane in the next 10 years it makes no sense to buy a fixer-upper and fix it up. And for someone just getting back into flying.... and especially with that kind of disposable income, there's no chance he keeps it 10 years.

I'd recommend to him that he look for a top of the line, example. Be that a J, Eagle, Ovation, etc.  Get one that is ready to fly just the way it is and then fly it. Undoubtedly within a year, he'll either move on to something else or be shopping for a late model Acclaim.

Just my $0.02

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Thanks Paul, good thoughts; that was (is) in fact plan "A", the J updating was a contingency. Would definitely like @carusoam to get some thoughts on how big a deal or not a long body for a newer pilot is (he will get mooney specialist CFI transition, so factor that as a given) but has no Mooney time. 

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