L. Trotter Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 3 hours ago, Txbyker said: Question: Assume you have total electrical failure and thus, no gear, no flaps. You can crank the gear down manually. Flaps not, assume no flap landing. Where in the POH does it provide landing distance for no flap landings? Actual DPE question. Russ The short answer is "it doesn't" My 2007 POH only provide landing distances for a specified configuration (full flaps/gear down) and speed. The emergency section provides no data to answer this question either. I doubt older POH's would include this info. The older POH's can be rather scant on information. This is how I would answer the question.... Calculate distance with flaps from the POH accounting for temp, altitude, head wind and runway gradient (because it's all you have). Since you will increase your approach speed with no flaps (based on stall speed), add 100 ft for every knot increased. This 100' number is published in my 2007 POH. Although the answer is not perfect, it's going to be close based on all the info provided by the POH. You CFI's out there....Did I get it right? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 Hmmmm... What we know... 1) The Landing speed is based on the stall speed... In ground effect... 2) The actual Stall speed for no flaps is known. 3) But not really well known in ground effect... 4) using stall speed, flaps up, is a ‘worst case’ calculation. You will be safe from stalling too soon, but will be traveling faster than you want to be... 5) You can use the rule of thumb for each 10kts over stall speed adds an additional 1k’ of landing distance... 6) then you would need to calculate the length of the stopping distance... based on weight and speed... 7) All aviation calculations end with a fudge safety factor... 8) If you find yourself landing without electricity use a very long runway... 9) If you can’t reach a very long runway. A GU landing will work incredibly well, once.... 10) The objective of the emergency landing is to protect the people... some aluminum may get scraped... 11) How many go arounds do you get before committing to the GU landing? Plan on shutting down everything including fuel prior to being on the ground... 12) say you have landed, you are braking heavily and the end of the runway is coming up... and you want to stop now! Raise the gear...? Dang... 13) Many threads around MS discuss landing pattern speeds in terms of stall speed... 1.3X Vs, 1.2X Vs And 1.1X Vs... now Vs has changed from VSO to VS(no flaps) 14) raising the gear may not be an option... since we had an electrical failure and had to crank the gear down... I have not had the opportunity to go commercial yet... but for the other FAA tests I have done... the logic counts, when the data is not available... Make sure the data is not available before whipping out the logic... test your logic on your MS friends first... How did I do? Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Txbyker Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 4 hours ago, carusoam said: Hmmmm... What we know... 1) The Landing speed is based on the stall speed... In ground effect... 2) The actual Stall speed for no flaps is known. 3) But not really well known in ground effect... 4) using stall speed, flaps up, is a ‘worst case’ calculation. You will be safe from stalling too soon, but will be traveling faster than you want to be... 5) You can use the rule of thumb for each 10kts over stall speed adds an additional 1k’ of landing distance... 6) then you would need to calculate the length of the stopping distance... based on weight and speed... 7) All aviation calculations end with a fudge safety factor... 8) If you find yourself landing without electricity use a very long runway... 9) If you can’t reach a very long runway. A GU landing will work incredibly well, once.... 10) The objective of the emergency landing is to protect the people... some aluminum may get scraped... 11) How many go arounds do you get before committing to the GU landing? Plan on shutting down everything including fuel prior to being on the ground... 12) say you have landed, you are braking heavily and the end of the runway is coming up... and you want to stop now! Raise the gear...? Dang... 13) Many threads around MS discuss landing pattern speeds in terms of stall speed... 1.3X Vs, 1.2X Vs And 1.1X Vs... now Vs has changed from VSO to VS(no flaps) 14) raising the gear may not be an option... since we had an electrical failure and had to crank the gear down... I have not had the opportunity to go commercial yet... but for the other FAA tests I have done... the logic counts, when the data is not available... Make sure the data is not available before whipping out the logic... test your logic on your MS friends first... How did I do? Best regards, -a- That’s good Anthony. My DPE is looking for my logic in such a case, like you have laid out here. My answer was, it is not in the POH so expect to land longer given no flaps, but leave em up versus down if I am on the last few amps of power, and find a suitable runway. Russ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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