Oldguy

G1000 WAAS upgrade parts availability ending

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Just got the following email on MAPAlist:

I called Mooney last week to order a WAAS upgrade for a G1000.  I had heard some rumblings about Garmin discontinuing the GIA63W that is need for the upgrade. It is official, Garmin no longer will manufacturer the GIA63W and the GIA63 is not upgradable to WAAS. This will affect Mooney, Cessna and Beech aircraft. There are about 200 Mooney’s that have not been upgraded to WAAS. I have run all my traps and have found enough components to do 5 upgrades. If you are considering WAAS, time is short. Call if we can help.

Don

Don Maxwell

dmaxwell@donmaxwell.com

Don Maxwell Aviation Services, Inc.

390 Central Road

Longview, Texas 75603

(903) 643-9902

Doesn't affect me, but thought there might be some folks here would want the info.

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Just got the following email on MAPAlist:

I called Mooney last week to order a WAAS upgrade for a G1000.  I had heard some rumblings about Garmin discontinuing the GIA63W that is need for the upgrade. It is official, Garmin no longer will manufacturer the GIA63W and the GIA63 is not upgradable to WAAS. This will affect Mooney, Cessna and Beech aircraft. There are about 200 Mooney’s that have not been upgraded to WAAS. I have run all my traps and have found enough components to do 5 upgrades. If you are considering WAAS, time is short. Call if we can help.

Don

Don Maxwell

dmaxwell@donmaxwell.com

Don Maxwell Aviation Services, Inc.

390 Central Road

Longview, Texas 75603

(903) 643-9902

Doesn't affect me, but thought there might be some folks here would want the info.



Peter Garmin was right. Antique technology should be discarded. I feel for these owners. I think the G1000 was introduced in 2004. Not a long time ago in avionics terms.


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I ran into a guy with Cessna equipped with a non waas g-1000.He ended up adsb by installing a stratus and when time comes installing a G500 or txi

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I ran into a guy with Cessna equipped with a non waas g-1000.He ended up adsb by installing a stratus and when time comes installing a G500 or txi
He won't be allowed to replace that G1000 unless Textron develops a replacement. Owners can't just upgrade on their own!

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He thinks the TC on a 182 would allow him to do just that if the G1000 was completely removed.Ie legacy instruments for pre 2006 Cessna.The g500 is approved for the 182 he points out and he can do it for about half the cost of upgrading his g1000

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That is really sad and disturbing.

just goes to show that avionics that is so closely certified to the airframe certification is not a good model for future evolution.

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So what GIAxxx goes in a new production? That can’t be used? I don’t have a G1000, just curious.

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7 minutes ago, larryb said:

So what GIAxxx goes in a new production? That can’t be used? I don’t have a G1000, just curious.

My money is on a G1000 NXI upgrade option.  Will probably increase the cost of entry and requires Textron/Mooney to participate.

 

4 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

He won't be allowed to replace that G1000 unless Textron develops a replacement. Owners can't just upgrade on their own!

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We all know that Insurance and Paperwork is more important that the FAA, but my money is on aircraft owners here.  Correct me if I'm wrong but all that is required is an STC or a field approval to remove the G1000 with other certified equipment.  However, I suspect that a G500TXI, WAAS GPSs, audio panel, and G600 will be more than the cost of an NXI upgrade.

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Hate to say I told you so, but back on February 22 I mentioned that the GIA63W's were going away.

 

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We all know that Insurance and Paperwork is more important that the FAA, but my money is on aircraft owners here.  Correct me if I'm wrong but all that is required is an STC or a field approval to remove the G1000 with other certified equipment.  However, I suspect that a G500TXI, WAAS GPSs, audio panel, and G600 will be more than the cost of an NXI upgrade.

Keep going you have only scratched the surface - transponder, engine analyzer, audio panel... And if it had the GFC700 then wow - new auto pilot!
Doubtful it would happen.
Further an update by Mooney for the Nxi could be a long time off. Where is the incentive for Mooney? After a very long time Mooney approved a G1000 WAAS version but given how a couple hundred longbodies didn't buy in beyond ADS/B, if I was Mooney I sure wouldn't expect to see more than a fraction of the fleet to adopt the Nxi. It's a much bigger update. Which makes it hard to justify for both Mooney and the owner.


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1 hour ago, kortopates said:


Keep going you have only scratched the surface - transponder, engine analyzer, audio panel... And if it had the GFC700 then wow - new auto pilot!
Doubtful it would happen.
Further an update by Mooney for the Nxi could be a long time off. Where is the incentive for Mooney? After a very long time Mooney approved a G1000 WAAS version but given how a couple hundred longbodies didn't buy in beyond ADS/B, if I was Mooney I sure wouldn't expect to see more than a fraction of the fleet to adopt the Nxi. It's a much bigger update. Which makes it hard to justify for both Mooney and the owner.


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No doubt it’s only scratching the surface!  Pricing is insane, and full panel retrofits don’t save near as much as they should compared to piecemealing upgrades.  No doubt there’s a challenge here.

If the OEMs don’t offer the upgrades then it appears to be limited long term support for the product.  There’s only so long that Garmin can point to the type certificate before it looks like Garmin has abandoned their customers.  This is the first cycle of major upgrades to first generation glass panels. The g500 and G1000 have both been replaced and Garmin is learning about the appetite of aircraft owners to upgrade.  We’ll see what Garmin learns via their product and pricing strategies.

Here’s my challenge- if we all agree that the g1000 aircraft without WAAS, but ultimately all g1000 aircraft are undesirable due to limited upgradabllity, that means those aircraft should be valued less than non g1000 aircraft.  So ultimately the implication is that non-WAAS g1000 Mooney’s are about to depreciate in excess of $50-$100k because of the type certificate/avionics upgrade problems.  

The G1000 issues are a challenge, but I’m not buying that airplanes are about to turn into scrap.  I don’t believe aircraft owners are going to sit back and just take it lying down.  It may require significant investments of money to stay with the latest generation of avionics, but there will be a way.  The path forward won’t be low cost, but no way Garmin doesn’t work with the OEMs to find an opportunity to upgrade.

 

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32 minutes ago, smccray said:

No doubt it’s only scratching the surface!  Pricing is insane, and full panel retrofits don’t save near as much as they should compared to piecemealing upgrades.  No doubt there’s a challenge here.

If the OEMs don’t offer the upgrades then it appears to be limited long term support for the product.  There’s only so long that Garmin can point to the type certificate before it looks like Garmin has abandoned their customers.  This is the first cycle of major upgrades to first generation glass panels. The g500 and G1000 have both been replaced and Garmin is learning about the appetite of aircraft owners to upgrade.  We’ll see what Garmin learns via their product and pricing strategies.

Here’s my challenge- if we all agree that the g1000 aircraft without WAAS, but ultimately all g1000 aircraft are undesirable due to limited upgradabllity, that means those aircraft should be valued less than non g1000 aircraft.  So ultimately the implication is that non-WAAS g1000 Mooney’s are about to depreciate in excess of $50-$100k because of the type certificate/avionics upgrade problems.  

The G1000 issues are a challenge, but I’m not buying that airplanes are about to turn into scrap.  I don’t believe aircraft owners are going to sit back and just take it lying down.  It may require significant investments of money to stay with the latest generation of avionics, but there will be a way.  The path forward won’t be low cost, but no way Garmin doesn’t work with the OEMs to find an opportunity to upgrade.

 

This is exactly why I bought a non G1000 Mooney!

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I remember when I first joined this forum, I was arguing with @gsengle about how my plan was to go with a g1000 ovation. 
Glad he knocked some sense into my dumbass. would not want to have an none WAAS g1000 equipped aircraft at this time.

It's a pity to think that just after 14 years of the service towards it, Garmin is already starting to leave the original g1000 behind.

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6 hours ago, smccray said:

 

The G1000 issues are a challenge, but I’m not buying that airplanes are about to turn into scrap.  I don’t believe aircraft owners are going to sit back and just take it lying down.  It may require significant investments of money to stay with the latest generation of avionics, but there will be a way.  The path forward won’t be low cost, but no way Garmin doesn’t work with the OEMs to find an opportunity to upgrade.

 

I hope you are right but I am not sure about that. Anyone remember Mooney Porsche?

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4 hours ago, Niko182 said:

...

It's a pity to think that just after 14 years of the service towards it, Garmin is already starting to leave the original g1000 behind.

Avionics vendors continue to innovate.   In contrast the airframe and engine companies have ossified.  

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2 hours ago, Igor_U said:

I hope you are right but I am not sure about that. Anyone remember Mooney Porsche?

Yep- very small production run with a different model number.  That's in contrast to significantly larger production of G1000 equipped aircraft- it's a market size issue.  The FAA database shows 17 M20Ls registered in the US.  There are 203 G36s on the registry.  The FAA shows 696 172S aircraft produced between 2006 and 2015- some of those are steam gauges, but I suspect most are G1000.  The market is so much bigger for G1000 equipped aircraft that I don't believe they're orphaned.  If you wait 20+ years to do anything as far as upgrades then perhaps owners will have problems upgrading, but the planes aren't going to turn into pumpkins- market size is too big.  Support cost of avionics may be greater, but there will be options.

I'll also note that there was an STC for the M20L to install an IO550.  I believe the shop that did that work is now gone, but owners had a chance to keep their planes in the air when issues were discovered.  The Mooney company that built that plane is gone (bankruptcy), and the engine manufacturer isn't in the business of producing aircraft engines.

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This is one reason I don't like glass.  However, it is not the glass that is the problem the problem is how it was implemented by being integrated into the type certificate.  These panels should be treated like any other TSO instrument in the panel.   The FAA needs to come out and give a blanket approval to replace these glass panel avionics inside the aircraft with TSO type avionics and move oven all in the name of safety and nex gen.

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This is one reason I don't like glass.  However, it is not the glass that is the problem the problem is how it was implemented by being integrated into the type certificate.  These panels should be treated like any other TSO instrument in the panel.   The FAA needs to come out and give a blanket approval to replace these glass panel avionics inside the aircraft with TSO type avionics and move oven all in the name of safety and nex gen.


Unfortunately, the type certificate integration trumps everything. If I were an avionics manufacturer, I wouldn’t be overly interested in the G1000 type of market. You are locked into the airframe manufacturer being part of the overall process including support.

Having standalone avionics is a better environment to sell into and gives you more latitude to introduce technologies not hampered by someone else’s processes.
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No doubt it’s only scratching the surface!  Pricing is insane, and full panel retrofits don’t save near as much as they should compared to piecemealing upgrades.  No doubt there’s a challenge here.
If the OEMs don’t offer the upgrades then it appears to be limited long term support for the product.  There’s only so long that Garmin can point to the type certificate before it looks like Garmin has abandoned their customers.  This is the first cycle of major upgrades to first generation glass panels. The g500 and G1000 have both been replaced and Garmin is learning about the appetite of aircraft owners to upgrade.  We’ll see what Garmin learns via their product and pricing strategies.
Here’s my challenge- if we all agree that the g1000 aircraft without WAAS, but ultimately all g1000 aircraft are undesirable due to limited upgradabllity, that means those aircraft should be valued less than non g1000 aircraft.  So ultimately the implication is that non-WAAS g1000 Mooney’s are about to depreciate in excess of $50-$100k because of the type certificate/avionics upgrade problems.  
The G1000 issues are a challenge, but I’m not buying that airplanes are about to turn into scrap.  I don’t believe aircraft owners are going to sit back and just take it lying down.  It may require significant investments of money to stay with the latest generation of avionics, but there will be a way.  The path forward won’t be low cost, but no way Garmin doesn’t work with the OEMs to find an opportunity to upgrade.
 

All good points, but Garmin has never been the hold up or issue here with respect to upgrades or lack thereof. At least from Garmin's perspective they'll say they have the upgrade path buts it's up to the airframe manufacturer to go through the certification process in order to amend the type certificate. Thus Mooney and not Garmin, bears most of the responsibility and cost to see this happen which is the critical differentiator between STC'd retrofit avioincs and fully integrated airframe manufacturer installed avioincs like the G1000. Thus the primary point of this discussion by many of us is that for G1000 type of airframe approved avioincs is that we become entirely dependent on airframe manufacturer for the approval process.

It's an interesting question how much Mooney's without WAAS will devalue relative to those with. But it's a real shortcoming these days with all of the avialable GPS approaches with some form of glideslope. But obviously we still have a couple hundred longbodies flying without the benefit of WAAS that didn't see the need to upgrade when it was available for a fraction of cost I imagine it will become down the road. Plus there are still lots of GNS non-WAAS boxes still flying with many only getting upgraded when they break. Of course the big difference is there may not even be a defined upgrade path for those non-WAAS G1000 Mooneys for quite sometime till Mooney approves one.




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17 hours ago, larryb said:

So what GIAxxx goes in a new production? That can’t be used? I don’t have a G1000, just curious.

Garmin support says that the GIA63W-20 is the one currently being manufactured for the new Nxi and is not compatible with the old G-1000.  (The previous GIA63W ends in -01

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Mooney went to bat for us with the GIA63W-01 upgrade for G-1000 year before last to get us STEC 55X and GFC's upgraded to WAAS.  I doubt Mooney knew of the life cycle plans for the GIA's when they did it.   The new -20 was probably in the Ultra lab getting qualified.  The integrated panel-in-a-box is most likely here to stay versus putting together various vendor components with a need to integrate to each other.  Its probably so much cheaper to manufacture. Ten years from now it will be the NXi components going obsolete.  I was fortunate to get mine upgraded a year and a half ago.  But even with the upgrade I fear that in a couple of years I won't be able to get spares.  I swapped out both PFD and MFD over the last two years due to failing buttons, joysticks, etc and got exchange refurbs quickly and reasonably.  I just can't see how they can avoid a certificate of the whole airframe with G-1000/NXi integration due to costs of doing it with several separate systems.

Russ

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Seems like Garmin or some other outfit could get an STC to upgrade a G1000 panel without the airframe manufacturer participation. I wonder why that does not happen? I thought that my GTN was installed with an STC from Garmin.

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22 minutes ago, larryb said:

Seems like Garmin or some other outfit could get an STC to upgrade a G1000 panel without the airframe manufacturer participation. I wonder why that does not happen? I thought that my GTN was installed with an STC from Garmin.

Money and market.

Tim

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Garmin earned an STC on their own for G1000 retrofit into King Airs as an example...but that is a high 6-figure product and a 50+ year production run for that market, so an easy business case for them. To do that for a few hundred piston planes with frugal owners will likely not make sense. If it did, they wouldn't be stopping production of the current WAAS units...

It sucks for us, certainly. I'm glad I don't own one. Maybe the Dynon kit will possibly offer an upgrade path. I recently noticed the GFC500 will be worked for all Mooneys except the Acclaim (and the new Ultras)...that got me head scratching a bit and I bet the fine print will also exclude all G1000 planes. The Acclaim is not listed this early because it is the only variant that only has a G1000 version.

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