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Oh, the pattern entry!


INA201

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13 hours ago, PTK said:

The word “priority” can mean any number of things. Maybe it was a VIP flight and needed to get down without delay. Point being he was not out on a tulip stroll doing practice approaches in VMC. It was a jet that needed to get down without waiting for the little piston. It was his way of saying so nicely. No harm in breaking off the approach to give him the runway. Just get out of the way and hold the drama. He wouldn’t be asking had it been IMC. A jet should have priority over a piston in this scenario where the piston can’t keep speed up sufficiently, imo.

That’s a bunch of crap!,

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13 hours ago, PTK said:

The word “priority” can mean any number of things. Maybe it was a VIP flight and needed to get down without delay. 

Huh?  Who was your flight instructor?  I have flown many trips to uncontrolled fields in Gulfstreams with Vips on board.....I was never a priority of the plane in front of me.....

This guy deserved to have the plane in front of him take his time and roll to the end......if a go around happens,,,oh well.....

Besides, what VIPs fly around in a citation?

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14 hours ago, PTK said:

The word “priority” can mean any number of things. Maybe it was a VIP flight and needed to get down without delay. Point being he was not out on a tulip stroll doing practice approaches in VMC. It was a jet that needed to get down without waiting for the little piston. It was his way of saying so nicely. No harm in breaking off the approach to give him the runway. Just get out of the way and hold the drama. He wouldn’t be asking had it been IMC. A jet should have priority over a piston in this scenario where the piston can’t keep speed up sufficiently, imo.

Not that I do it very often, but I have a self imposed rule I never post on forums after I've had a few drinks...................just saying..............

Tom

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I'll play devils advocate, I fly both a piston Mooney and light jet in and out of a non controlled airport with heavy student pilot activity. 99% of the time in the Phenom we load and fly approaches, it is much safer, it is established, it is a 10 miles straight in to land. Is going around or extending a downwind for 25 seconds for someone that is ultimately 40-50kts faster than you on short final really that big of deal? While we don't expect priority. Respectfully I start my radio calls 20-25 miles out, I give distance and time, which is typically 3-4 minutes to touchdown and I expect that should give plenty enough time for everyone in the pattern to visualize and adjust accordingly to their higher speed neighbors. Its a group effort these days to keep everyone safe. Single pilot op's, those type of radio calls are next to impossible to make with so much going on so quickly in the cockpit. So I don't see much wrong with either and try not to judge much unless someone is clearly trying to play the big Johnson game. In that case, F*** it make the Citation go around.

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33 minutes ago, swanny said:

I'll play devils advocate, I fly both a piston Mooney and light jet in and out of a non controlled airport with heavy student pilot activity. 99% of the time in the Phenom we load and fly approaches, it is much safer, it is established, it is a 10 miles straight in to land. Is going around or extending a downwind for 25 seconds for someone that is ultimately 40-50kts faster than you on short final really that big of deal? While we don't expect priority. Respectfully I start my radio calls 20-25 miles out, I give distance and time, which is typically 3-4 minutes to touchdown and I expect that should give plenty enough time for everyone in the pattern to visualize and adjust accordingly to their higher speed neighbors. Its a group effort these days to keep everyone safe. Single pilot op's, those type of radio calls are next to impossible to make with so much going on so quickly in the cockpit. So I don't see much wrong with either and try not to judge much unless someone is clearly trying to play the big Johnson game. In that case, F*** it make the Citation go around.

Hello Satan! :D I think in general the uncontrolled environment works fine. What I described above was not a downwind to base scenario where delaying the base turn was in question. We actually were on the ILS and the Citation was coming up on a 10 mile straight-in. Most of us small flibs play nice to faster traffic and will accommodate. But when you tell me an approach controller has given you priority to an uncontrolled airport and I need to get out of your way, well, the temptation is to make them go around. I know the Philly sector is on LiveATC, I'll have to see if it is in their 30 day archive. If it is, I should pull it and we can listen to the priority being assigned and whether or not he was cleared for an ILS approach on a VMC day. ;)

Most of the airports that I fly to that have runways long enough for light jet traffic are pretty civilized. You want to see craziness? Go to an uncontrolled field where there is parachute ops, glider ops, guys flying NORAD, banner towing, ultralights and guys who fly twice a year. 

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23 minutes ago, Marauder said:

But when you tell me an approach controller has given you priority to an uncontrolled airport and I need to get out of your way, well, the temptation is to make them go around.

See above: "F*** it, make the Citation go around".  We are all well aware that being cleared for an approach is NOT priory to land. Hence circling minimums and missed approach procedures. Even if the Citation declared an emergency, approach would have given them the "squak 1200, change to advisory approved, have a nice day" speech.

 

47 minutes ago, Marauder said:

You want to see craziness? Go to an uncontrolled field where there is parachute ops, glider ops, guys flying NORAD, banner towing, ultralights and guys who fly twice a year. 

Nah, I find it more enticing when they are within traffic pattern distance and on separate frequencies :D

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On 6/12/2018 at 8:54 PM, Mooneymite said:

The trap is that doing something to retaliate for perceived arrogance/misbehavior does nothing to promote safety.

We must strive to fly professionally even when pissed off.  

Agree 100%. Being vengeful is unprofessional and detracts from safety.

On another note, I’m not prepared nor inclined to take his word for it and assume the Citation pilot was rude. I’d ask him to please post a recording of the alleged exchange. This way we can all have an opportunity to hear what was said, how it was said, and if it was as he describes it. Alternatively he can invite the Citation pilot on here so he can give his side of the story. Without balanced information what he says is hearsay and just drama and static.

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I don’t get it, if they were VMC why is the Citation not obligated to join the pattern at his higher altitude just like all of the other traffic. Isn’t that the regulation in the US?

We have a small airline ( Bearskin) here who are famous for the same type of thing at small in controlled fields, and at our field will try bully their way in ahead of others.  I won’t go around for them.

Clarence

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17 hours ago, David Herman said:

SMH

I don't accept or care for unsubstantiated information. It's rumor and gossip.

I shake my head at those who do, frankly.

This, imo, is someone strolling along in VMC seazing the opportunity to complain about something or someone! Probably because moving out of the way would delay their brunch! 

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12 minutes ago, PTK said:

I don't accept or care for unsubstantiated information. It's rumor and gossip.

Kinda like your information about Aspen or Avidyne products?

Sorry, Peter, this strikes me as the pot calling the kettle black...

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4 hours ago, David Herman said:

Peter, 

There’s so much wrong with your comments ... I’m not sure where to begin? But if you’re calling Chris a liar from the outset ... which you indeed are ... then I’m not even going to bother explaining to you why your comments are way out of line.

Using that “Ignore User” feature is just easier! Bye now ....

I did not, am not and will not call anyone anything derogatory. He is the one who initiated the name calling and by doing so he must also assume the responsibility and the burden. Why don’t you, therefore, ask him why he is calling the other pilot an “arrogant” “cowboy” who thinks he owns the airport? All I’m asking is for some substantiation of his remarks. I find it remarkable how easy it is for him to slam the poor guy behind his back, yet it’s so difficult to support his name calling by posting substance in the form of a recording. Or at the very least invite the gentleman so he can have a chance to respond. Too much to ask?

Tying up the frequency reciting the FAR is childish and serves no purpose, imo.

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The couple of times I've been to Tune, it was the same experience as the OP.  I was talking to someone in a pa-32 on long straight-in final while I was downwind about to turn base and he admitted he couldn't even see anything over his nose/cowl.  I couldn't see him so I just asked him if he was past the towers yet.. .   Plus, the egg beaters were all around.   When going into Tune, need to have your head on a swivel...  It doesn't seem many people fly the pattern there.

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39 minutes ago, David Herman said:

I’m SURE the Citation guy is on MooneySpace ... and will speak up any second now!

I see. Because the gentleman has no idea and he’ll never have the opportunity to respond it’s perfectly ok to denigrate him. Feel good warm and fuzzy and have fun all at his expense and safely behind his back. It’s all very clear to me now.

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1 hour ago, David Herman said:

I’m glad to know that about Tune. We’ve got family in Nashville and John C Tune would be our preferred airport ... maybe? We’ve talked for a while about flying the Mooney over to visit ... just never have. I’m already a little keyed-up going there knowing there are some HUGE antennas to the  South ... as well as terrain. After reading this, I might just decide to go into BNA ... rather than deal with a bunch of yahoos in an uncontrolled environment that don’t want to follow the rules ... it’s untimately about “risk management.”

I hope it doesn’t take a mid-air collision for the safety culture at the airport to be what it should be? Funny how the standards slowly slip into mediocrity ... until something bad happens ...

Don’t let my comment deter your from going to tune. Just be careful..  the couple times I’ve goen there, I come from the east north of bna on vfr vector, then midfield fly over for downwind RIGHT pattern.   The towers I was talking about are north on the other side of the river.  

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I only rarely do long straight in approaches, I was more thinking about me on downwind and the jet coming in straight.  Like I said, courtesy and common sense usually solve these little dilemmas without a lot of muss, fuss or traded paint.

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If the Citation guy was "given priority" (into an uncontrolled field - whatever that means), he would still have been on an IFR flight plan for which ATC is responsible for providing separation.  Obviously, that did not occur as there was no emergency.  If the Citation was talking to ATC on an IFR flight plan, ATC would be advising him of the traffic ahead of him on the center's frequency, not asking him to radio you on the comm frequency to demand that you get out of his way.  I would research the communication files and dig up the evidence.

John Breda

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