Mooney Upgrade Time - Need Advice

[irishpilot]

Hey everyone, it's been a while since I've posted. Had to sell my awesome M20E when I got stationed in Hawaii. Moving in the Spring back to the mainland and will need a bird to do a San Antonio to Montgomery commute. Looking to spend around $150-180k. Want to get into the FL and have some ice protection. AC optional. Mooney Recommendations please! Rocket, 231, TLS, Ovation, etc. I'd like to hear owner perspective.

 

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[carusoam]

The Long bodies are at the top of your range...  If you find one below the top, Expect to be adding money for the usual run-out things...

Bravos make really good traveling machines and we’re the first of the commercially viable Long Bodies......

TKS and AC and built in O2 add to the initial costs...

Rockets, 262s, 252s and 231s are really in line with your budget. Lots available.  Check each one for UL.  They have a tendency to get loaded up with equipment...

NA IO550s can reach the lower FLs pretty well.  But, are not the same as having a TC....

Enjoy the hunt!

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

IP,

A great way to get a feel for a lot of Mooneys for sale...

Visit the All American website... and check their inventory....

https://www.allamericanaircraft.com/default.htm

 

today’s list... https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/?pcid=17527&dlr=1

AAA does a good job of filling in all the data that is pertinent to select one over the other...

If you get a chance to visit TX... they often have one of each in inventory... call before visiting.  I haven’t been there recently.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Bravoman]

+ 1 for the Bravo. You can dial it back to 29/34 and do around 200 in the high teens and above at 18-19 gph. Plus you have a Lycoming that can easily make TBO with some descent management. I continue to be impressed after almost  5 years of ownership. Best single engine piston buy on the market IMO.

[Hank]

Howdy, neighbor! Enjoy your search. I may be able to help you (slowly) visit some prospects, Dannelly field is only about 25 nm away.

[exM20K]

FIKI Bravo and get a B-kool portable a/c. Perfect fit for your mission

[irishpilot]

Thanks for the great input. I've been looking at the Bravo's. It looks like for nicely appointed ones, they sit in the $180-220k range. Any of you Bravo owners fly a family of four often? In our E it was tight on baggage space but it was the short fuselage. For flight planning what is the sweet spot for long xc alt, high teens or worth the extra climb time to lower FLs?

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[smccray]

The long bodies have useful loads of 850-1000 lbs. Some of the Eagles will be north of 1000 lbs but useful loads north of 950 is good.

A bravo is a hell of an airplane. Problem with the price point of the early Bravo is that the early Columbia 400s are a good substitute at a similar price point.  Scary with Textron shutting down the TTX but time will tell what happens on that front.

The FIKI bravo is unique- nothing else competes (FIKI) at that price point. Useful load will likely be sub 900 lbs.

For passenger comfort, sticking with a Mooney, look at a long body. I’d buy an ovation.  Useful load will be a challenge.

If you want to stay legal on useful load I would look for a 252 encore conversion or an Encore, both of which will be at the top end of your range.

4 plus bags tends to be a six place airplane mission.  Not many options in the Mooney lineage. 

[Bravoman]

8 hours ago, irishpilot said:

Thanks for the great input. I've been looking at the Bravo's. It looks like for niceliy appointed ones, they sit in the $180-220k range. Any of you Bravo owners fly a family of four often? In our E it was tight on baggage space but it was the short fuselage. For flight planning what is the sweet spot for long xc alt, high teens or worth the extra climb time to lower FLs?

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If you are routinely flying a family of four that changes the equation entirely, at least in my opinion. With the Bravo you want to get to altitude and stay there until you reach your destination. The tremendous utility of this plane is realized  when flying long trips at altitudes in the mid to high teens and above. If you are fuel limited because of your payload you can’t do this. My Bravo is not fiki and has a useful load of 950 lbs. By way of example, on a recent trip to NY from Atl my wife and I flew up in the Mooney and my son went commercial because with him we would have needed to make a fuel stop. To do what these planes are designed to do they are 2 people and bags planes.

[jlunseth]

I have a 231 and I love my aircraft, but if I had it to do over again I would buy a 252 or later (Bravo, Acclaim).  The Rocket and 231 cannot be made FIKI.  Inadvertent TKS is not good enough for me, if I am going into icing conditions I want to know that the TKS will work.  Also, too many single points of failure such as single alternator (the main reason for no FIKI). Icing and heavy IMC, especially if you are up in the flight levels and have a long way to get down to better conditions, are not to be messed with.  I just avoid them, which means not flying sometimes, when I might want to.

[Danb]

Bravos are great two person airplanes,full luggage, LR tanks to 130 gallons.

Recently completed true cross country, 25 hours of flying, most legs were 5 hours between 800-1000 miles in total comfort. Fuel burn approximated 17.5-18 gph averaging 190+ knots, flew nice and easy, wonderful trip machine, it’s hard to go wrong with our long bodies.

[Igor_U]

21 hours ago, Danb said:

Bravos are great two person airplanes,full luggage, LR tanks to 130 gallons.

Recently completed true cross country, 25 hours of flying, most legs were 5 hours between 800-1000 miles in total comfort. Fuel burn approximated 17.5-18 gph averaging 190+ knots, flew nice and easy, wonderful trip machine, it’s hard to go wrong with our long bodies.

130 gal? how often do you top off your tanks?

That is 780lb of fuel which sound more like one person airplane if 950lb UL is true.

[M016576]

Everything in aviation is a trade off...

Ovations, Missiles, Eagles:

NA- really most happy between 8-12K, although I take mine up to 15-17 from time to time.

 higher useful loads (1000+)

About 65% fuel burn of their turbo brothers. (My TKS’d Missile does 175+ KTAS on 12GPH at 10K)

slower if a comparable TC plane gets up higher for a given long leg.

about a year ago, it seemed like there were a lot of Bravos on the market in the mid-150’s... not the case now- seems like most are in the low 200’s.  I did some bar napkin math on maybe switching to a bravo for my mission (which sounds similar to your own) and this is what I came up with-

 2 adults, 2 kids, 200-600NM... crossing some mountains (I’m up in the pac NW).  High density altitudes are a player sometimes, but not every day. “High” MEA’s on about 50% of trips (11,000-ish).

bottom line- I couldn’t figure out a way to load a bravo legally for my missions with its sub 900lb useful load (TKS and O2... well, at least the one I was looking at) for the trips that I do most.

here’s the weight I use-

310lbs for 2 Pax up front

150lbs for the kids in the back

60lbs for TKS fluid

75lbs for baggage.

total dry weight- 595lbs

that only leaves 200-ish lbs for fuel in the bravo I was looking at.... at 20GPH, thats only 33 Gallons... at 20GPH and with IFR reserves, you’re only talking a 1 hour flight, or about a 200NM leg.

if you apply that same mission to a Missile, or an Ovation, where you’ve got a 1000+ useful load, you’re now carrying over 67 gallons of fuel, and only burning at 12.5 GPH.... which gives you an 800-1000NM range.

the difference is that the bravo can fly about 7000’ higher, realistically, than the Ovation/Missile/M20S.  If you need that altitude on a regular basis, then you need the turbo charger.  Otherwise, your mission may be better suited to a NA mooney.

Just my thoughts based on a similar mission

 

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2018 by M016576

[M016576]

On 6/10/2018 at 4:35 AM, jlunseth said:

I have a 231 and I love my aircraft, but if I had it to do over again I would buy a 252 or later (Bravo, Acclaim).  The Rocket and 231 cannot be made FIKI.  Inadvertent TKS is not good enough for me, if I am going into icing conditions I want to know that the TKS will work.  Also, too many single points of failure such as single alternator (the main reason for no FIKI). Icing and heavy IMC, especially if you are up in the flight levels and have a long way to get down to better conditions, are not to be messed with.  I just avoid them, which means not flying sometimes, when I might want to.

Inadvertent TKS protection is exceptionally valuable for me.  It also works quite well, I might add, in the instances where I’ve had an inadvertent icing encounter- which despite pre-flight planning and continuous monitoring of in flight conditions, does happen from time to time (at least out here in the pac NW where cells/systems can move rapidly and unexpectedly).

the inadvertent system is a great safety net for IFR flight in a light piston single where the possibility of ice exists even in the summer time, but isn’t always forecast or conditions shift from their forecast.

That said, If one wants to fly regularly in known icing conditions, in a light single, the FIKI system is the only way to do that legally.  Maybe not always smart, but legal.

 

[gsxrpilot]

I personally love flying in the flight levels and don't mind wearing the mask at all. My right seater is much less inclined to wear the mask, and I'd be very hesitant to try to manage O2 for kids in the back seats as well. Between San Antonio and all points east, there really isn't any need other than occasionally weather, to go that high. 

Your best bet for a family of four plus luggage would be an Eagle or an F. If you have your heart set on a turbo, then a 252 converted to an Encore would be your best bet for UL and range.

You mention TKS, but if you stay out of the flight levels, its rarely needed on this southern route.

 

[Yooper Rocketman]

On 6/10/2018 at 6:35 AM, jlunseth said:

I have a 231 and I love my aircraft, but if I had it to do over again I would buy a 252 or later (Bravo, Acclaim).  The Rocket and 231 cannot be made FIKI.  Inadvertent TKS is not good enough for me, if I am going into icing conditions I want to know that the TKS will work.  Also, too many single points of failure such as single alternator (the main reason for no FIKI). Icing and heavy IMC, especially if you are up in the flight levels and have a long way to get down to better conditions, are not to be messed with.  I just avoid them, which means not flying sometimes, when I might want to.

There ARE Rockets that are FIKI, converted 252's.  I don't know how much experience you have flying with TKS but can share mine (19 years in 4 different airplanes)  I have had a total of 2 TKS failures in IMC/Icing, both in FIKI airplanes.  Ironically, my hours in non-FIKI planes vs. FIKI airplanes is about 10 to 1 (and were talking several thousand hours).  Call me lucky, but I've not had a failure in my Mooney 231/Rocket, which 90% of my time is in.  I believe it has more to do with maintenance and procedures.

Too many single point failures?  The only actual " dual" icing equipment is the second pump (the alternator is nice, required for FIKI, but does't effect the reliability of the actual icing system).  The entire remaining TKS system is the same in FIKI and non-FIKI.  The substance of the difference after that is basically which models Mooney and TKS spent the time and money on getting certification.  They didn't go back any further than the 252.  Failures such as leaks (most common), plugged filters, electrical problems, and running out of fluid are just a susceptible in either case.  

If you want certainty your icing system will work, change your "icing system" to "icing program"; stay out of any possible icing.  I've seen failures on boots too, and both times one worked while the other didn't (yes, a FIKI system).  That will get your attention, especially when you realize the protocol for that is turn off the working one as well!

Tom

[StevenL757]

1 hour ago, M016576 said:

Everything in aviation is a trade off...

Ovations, Missiles, Eagles:

NA- really most happy between 8-12K, although I take mine up to 15-17 from time to time.

 higher useful loads (1000+)

About 65% fuel burn of their turbo brothers. (My TKS’d Missile does 175+ KTAS on 12GPH at 10K)

slower if a comparable TC plane gets up higher for a given long leg.

about a year ago, it seemed like there were a lot of Bravos on the market in the mid-150’s... not the case now- seems like most are in the low 200’s.  I did some bar napkin math on maybe switching to a bravo for my mission (which sounds similar to your own) and this is what I came up with-

 2 adults, 2 kids, 200-600NM... crossing some mountains (I’m up in the pac NW).  High density altitudes are a player sometimes, but not every day. “High” MEA’s on about 50% of trips (11,000-ish).

bottom line- I couldn’t figure out a way to load a bravo legally for my missions with its sub 900lb useful load (TKS and O2... well, at least the one I was looking at) for the trips that I do most.

here’s the weight I use-

310lbs for 2 Pax up front

150lbs for the kids in the back

60lbs for TKS fluid

75lbs for baggage.

total dry weight- 595lbs

that only leaves 200-ish lbs for fuel in the bravo I was looking at.... at 20GPH, thats only 33 Gallons... at 20GPH and with IFR reserves, you’re only talking a 1 hour flight, or about a 200NM leg.

if you apply that same mission to a Missile, or an Ovation, where you’ve got a 1000+ useful load, you’re now carrying over 67 gallons of fuel, and only burning at 12.5 GPH.... which gives you an 800-1000NM range.

the difference is that the bravo can fly about 7000’ higher, realistically, than the Ovation/Missile/M20S.  If you need that altitude on a regular basis, then you need the turbo charger.  Otherwise, your mission may be better suited to a NA mooney.

Just my thoughts based on a similar mission

Totally agree.  If you were living on/working in/travelling to and from the West coast, I could see a more solid justification for a TLS/Bravo, but given your mission, you'll be better-off with a FiKi Ovation, minus AC (put in a cheap, portable unit).  Your maintenance costs will be much lower, fuel burn goes down, useful load goes up.  Tough choice, I know, and I may be biased, but a turbo in your situation just doesn't make sense.

Steve

[Danb]

4 hours ago, Igor_U said:

130 gal? how often do you top off your tanks?

That is 780lb of fuel which sound more like one person airplane if 950lb UL is true.

Generally only for long legs, I have it topped off just prior to departure. I topped it off 5 times on last trip a couple weeks ago. When not flying long legs I keep about 90 gallons in it. My UL is 1025 lbs

[irishpilot]

Everything in aviation is a trade off...
Ovations, Missiles, Eagles:
NA- really most happy between 8-12K, although I take mine up to 15-17 from time to time.
 higher useful loads (1000+)
About 65% fuel burn of their turbo brothers. (My TKS’d Missile does 175+ KTAS on 12GPH at 10K)
slower if a comparable TC plane gets up higher for a given long leg.
about a year ago, it seemed like there were a lot of Bravos on the market in the mid-150’s... not the case now- seems like most are in the low 200’s.  I did some bar napkin math on maybe switching to a bravo for my mission (which sounds similar to your own) and this is what I came up with-
 2 adults, 2 kids, 200-600NM... crossing some mountains (I’m up in the pac NW).  High density altitudes are a player sometimes, but not every day. “High” MEA’s on about 50% of trips (11,000-ish).
bottom line- I couldn’t figure out a way to load a bravo legally for my missions with its sub 900lb useful load (TKS and O2... well, at least the one I was looking at) for the trips that I do most.
here’s the weight I use-
310lbs for 2 Pax up front
150lbs for the kids in the back
60lbs for TKS fluid
75lbs for baggage.
total dry weight- 595lbs
that only leaves 200-ish lbs for fuel in the bravo I was looking at.... at 20GPH, thats only 33 Gallons... at 20GPH and with IFR reserves, you’re only talking a 1 hour flight, or about a 200NM leg.
if you apply that same mission to a Missile, or an Ovation, where you’ve got a 1000+ useful load, you’re now carrying over 67 gallons of fuel, and only burning at 12.5 GPH.... which gives you an 800-1000NM range.
the difference is that the bravo can fly about 7000’ higher, realistically, than the Ovation/Missile/M20S.  If you need that altitude on a regular basis, then you need the turbo charger.  Otherwise, your mission may be better suited to a NA mooney.
Just my thoughts based on a similar mission
 
 
 
 

Thanks all for the awesome data! This is why this forum is so good. Everyone brings up valid points and for single pistons, everything is a trade-off. I agree that flying into know icing may be legal, but not the smartest. I'm considering a TKS since I've been in areas where icing wasn't forecast and the buildup can be quick. IMHO, TKS gives a pilot more options when transiting.

Of note, I have a lot of time in military aircraft which have limited icing protection. Just enough to quickly climb/decend out of it. I don't mess with ice in those planes, and certainly won't be with a Mooney, but it is another tool in a tool kit to help, especially during winter flying.

As for primary mission, you are right, East of the Rockies, a turbo is overkill. 90% of my flying will be solo, but speed is a primary driver and high flying gets the TAS up. With my M20E, I used that aircraft for a shorter commute and it was perfect. For family trips, we had to pack light but it was doable (especially since kids are good for no more than 2.0 on bladders). We have a need to fly to AZ and CO on family trips. I have lots of Rocky Mtn flying experience and turbos and high hp are good things to have.

Honestly, when I sold the E, I told myself I'd step up to a T210 or A36 because the weight and space gains. However, speed is King when commuting and that's why Mooney's are so attractive. I am still having that debate, but am trying to get smarter on the newer Mooney.

Please keep all the great info coming!

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[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, irishpilot said:

As for primary mission, you are right, East of the Rockies, a turbo is overkill. 

 

I have always lived East of the Rockies. I bought my first turbo Mooney in 1993 (used 231). I have owned 3 different TLS Bravos, one Encore (M20K Turbo) and one Ovation since then. The Ovation was a beautiful airplane that had the 310hp STC, air conditioning an an amazing panel, but was the only non-turbo and I only owned it a little over a year since I really liked flying in the teens where you are above most weather and traffic and the air temps are much more comfortable in the summer.  You aren't going to top a thunderstorm in any piston airplane but in the summers if you are trying to get over the tops of the cumulus in the afternoons the climb performance of the non turbo above 12,000 wasn't satisfactory for me. If I had never owned a turbo Mooney I wouldn't have known the difference.

[smccray]

2 hours ago, irishpilot said:

Honestly, when I sold the E, I told myself I'd step up to a T210 or A36 because the weight and space gains. However, speed is King when commuting and that's why Mooney's are so attractive. I am still having that debate, but am trying to get smarter on the newer Mooney. 


 

I was looking to be able to make the trip from Dallas to Denver in a piston single that could carry all our stuff comfortably.  That means 180 knots+, 600 lbs of people and bags, and air conditioning.  That wasn't an option for me on any piston Mooney.

The Mooney is certainly fast, and given your stated mission the most inexpensive choice both capital cost and operating cost.  The T210 and the A36 will have more useful load than the Mooney at a greater cost.  The T210 capital cost is in your budget, but the operating cost will be higher.  A36 will be more expensive.  Both the Cessna and the Beech operating cost will be more than an the Ovation.  Economic speed is what the Mooney does best sacrificing comfort; I like the tradeoff.  The Mooney is a fantastic airplane, but I think the Cessna and the Bonanza are comparatively more comfortable than the Mooney in terms of transporting people and cargo.  (Note: looking forward to hate mail for that comment.)

Any Mooney with TKS is going to sell north of the top end of your budget.  Same situation with any TKS equipped A36.  I don't know about the 210.

Given the part of the world you're flying in, were I in your shoes, I would buy the Ovation.  If your family is comfortable in a Mooney I would look for a non-air conditioned Ovation with a 310 HP engine.   That plane will sell inside your budget range, and without A/C and you can find that plane with close to 1000 lbs of useful load.  If your wife will travel with you in the Mooney the Ovation would be my choice.  I was 24 hrs from making an offer an M20R before my wife pulled the plug on that idea.  Tried to buy a M20M before the Ovation but they're trading at prices that I don't make a lot of sense to me.  I believe the Ovation is less likely to depreciate than the Bravo long term.

If the Turbo is important to you, it is possible although difficult, to find a 4 seat Bonanza with a turbonormalizer.  You'll want to run weight and balance on any specific plane as the 4 seat bonanzas tend to get out of CG aft, but the turbo helps that problem a lot.  Older turbo normalized 4 seat bonanzas are rare but they're out there.  With TKS too?  even more rare and not FIKI.  A 4 seat TN Bonanza could be acquired within your budget if you're patient- likely similar speeds to the Ovation in the 10-12K altitude range on an extra 2-3 gallons per hour more with options to go high if you want to with 1200+ useful load.  The airframe will be 15-20 years older than the Ovation at the same capital cost.

If you want speed and useful load you're quickly in a turbo normalized A36.  It won't be as fast as any turbo Mooney at altitude, but real world block times won't change the utility of the airplane.  Total cost will be higher compared to the Ovation.  If you wade into that market you'll find bidding wars on TN A36s which make them hard to acquire right now for a reasonable price, but it's possible albeit above your budget.  I went TN A36- found a plane not advertised on the market and we made a deal.  I loved my J, but my wife didn't fly in the plane in the last three years I owned it.  Time will tell if the Bo was a good choice, but my wife climbed in to the back seat and smiled.  That smile made the price tag worth it to me.  We'll see if I'm still smiling in a 12 months after paying operating cost for a year and after the first annual.

[exM20K]

Another weight consideration is available payload at max landing weight.  MTOW in the long body planes is 3368, but lax landing weight is 3200#.  so a 900# useful load at t/o is only 732# landing.  With 600# of people and stuff, that's 22 gallons max on landing, with no consideration of divert/alternate fuel.  Precise flight planning is a must!

 

@gsxrpilot: I doubt the FIKI certification would transfer from 252 -> Rocket.  I know that tip tanks in the Bo are disqualifying.  You'd still have all the equipment, but it would probably not be "FIKI," for whatever that's worth.

Edited June 11, 2018 by exM20K

[Yooper Rocketman]

2 hours ago, exM20K said:

@gsxrpilot: I doubt the FIKI certification would transfer from 252 -> Rocket.  I know that tip tanks in the Bo are disqualifying.  You'd still have all the equipment, but it would probably not be "FIKI," for whatever that's worth.    I know that tip tanks in the Bo are disqualifying.  You'd still have all the equipment, but it would probably not be "FIKI," for whatever that's worth.

I think you meant to reference me, not @gsxrpilot on the quote above.  I've ordered 4 systems for used planes, one was a FIKI system.  You would not be able to get a FIKI system installed on a modified plane but you CAN modifiy a FIKI plane and keep the FIKI.  It's up to each STC holder to determine if their "new STC" will compromise any prior ones (been there, done that).  I HAVE seen 252 Rockets with FIKI.

Tornado Alley Turbo-normalized planes are disqualifying too to Bonanzas.  We have one with FIKI and the mod.  Just have to know how to do it.

Tom

[exM20K]

9 minutes ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

I think you meant to reference me, not @gsxrpilot on the quote above.  I've ordered 4 systems for used planes, one was a FIKI system.  You would not be able to get a FIKI system installed on a modified plane but you CAN modifiy a FIKI plane and keep the FIKI.  It's up to each STC holder to determine if their "new STC" will compromise any prior ones (been there, done that).  I HAVE seen 252 Rockets with FIKI.

Tornado Alley Turbo-normalized planes are disqualifying too to Bonanzas.  We have one with FIKI and the mod.  Just have to know how to do it.

Tom

Gotcha.  If FIKI mattered to an owner, it would definitely be wise to check this carefully.  FIKI Rocket would be a heck of a ride.

-dan

[irishpilot]

Y'all have given me a lot to mull over. I think if I commit to a long body, I'm going to spend for FIKI. I'm also going to mull over price. My $150-180k is a cash buy. I'm trying to avoid financing. Operating costs are not my primary concern in a single. I've got twin time and that's where operating costs really make a difference. Although aquisition twin prices are currently very depressed.

I think turbo is also where I'm leaning due to I like to fly high. However, I don't know much about the Ovation. I'll do some more research on that.

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