tspear Posted June 6, 2018 Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 Hello, Thinking about what to buy for my next plane. Based on some preliminary research it seems a Mooney can do the job. Basically for the next five years about half my trips will be four people (two short) and bags for a weekend. People and bags will weigh about 750lbs and fly 400 miles no wind. The remaining long distance flights will generally be 450lbs and 800 plus miles. Day trips will be 400lbs of people and bags but generally limited to 2 hours. Other factors, I currently rent a SR20, even with noise canceling headsets (Zulu 2), my wife says the noise and vibration are the most fatigueing aspects of flying. Also, I pretty much avoid O2 level flying, I just do not like wearing a mask or nasal cannula. So what models should I be looking for? And anyone know one in the Boston area for a demo flight or rental? Tim Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMuncy Posted June 6, 2018 Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 Better not get a demo flight in a Mooney. Too much of a chance you will nudge your mission requirements to fit. Mooney's have that effect on pilots. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted June 6, 2018 Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 Got a budget in mind? I would say that just about any NA model would suit your missions. Individual planes might be a little tight on the useful load for scenario one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 6, 2018 Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 Welcome aboard, TSP! Get a decent O2 system... no need to get fatigued during flights... Get a decent Mooney... extends your range before you get fatigued... expect a UL of 1kLBs... easy for prelim calcs. Some Mooneys will be better, some not as good... NJ has rental Mooneys with transition training available. make your decision easier... have your wife sit in a modern Long Body Mooney... adjust the seats before she even gets in... There is a great Mooney sales organization that always has a variety of planes available to get a feel for what Mooneys have to offer... All American Aircraft... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tspear Posted June 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Bob_Belville said: Got a budget in mind? I would say that just about any NA model would suit your missions. Individual planes might be a little tight on the useful load for scenario one. Oops, forgot to include it. Targeting 50-100K preferably. Steam gauge six pack is fine. Would prefer to have a GNS530 or GTN750 already installed. I guess if I get the wrong plane, I just need to lose more weight.... Tim Edited June 6, 2018 by tspear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tspear Posted June 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 7 hours ago, carusoam said: Welcome aboard, TSP! Get a decent O2 system... no need to get fatigued during flights... Get a decent Mooney... extends your range before you get fatigued... expect a UL of 1kLBs... easy for prelim calcs. Some Mooneys will be better, some not as good... NJ has rental Mooneys with transition training available. make your decision easier... have your wife sit in a modern Long Body Mooney... adjust the seats before she even gets in... There is a great Mooney sales organization that always has a variety of planes available to get a feel for what Mooneys have to offer... All American Aircraft... Best regards, -a- I have used Mountain Air and other high end systems. I just do not like them. So my question is which Mooney models should I consider? All American Aircraft is in Texas, so unless they have planes under consignment near Boston, they are a bit far away to get a demo flight and see if the wife likes it. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted June 6, 2018 Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 9 minutes ago, tspear said: Oops, forgot to include it. Targeting 50-100K preferably. Steam gauge six pack is fine. Would prefer to have a GNS530 or GTN750 already installed. I guess if I get the wrong plane, I just need to lose more weight.... Tim If she's used to flying in a Cirrus and you're now looking at M20E, F, or maybe a J... I don't think she's gonna be happy. As much as us pilots dislike flying those Clorox bottle airplanes, the passenger comfort is much nicer and more modern than anything Mooney you're gonna find for under $100K. I'm as much of a Mooney fanboy as anyone you'll meet, but based on what you've described, I don't think you're anywhere near a Mooney that the wife will consider an upgrade over that Cirrus. Imagine moving from a 2000 Toyota Corolla to a 1979 911. Drivers will make that swap instantly. But for a passenger who doesn't like the noise, vibration, fatigue, etc. already??? Sorry. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tspear Posted June 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said: If she's used to flying in a Cirrus and you're now looking at M20E, F, or maybe a J... I don't think she's gonna be happy. As much as us pilots dislike flying those Clorox bottle airplanes, the passenger comfort is much nicer and more modern than anything Mooney you're gonna find for under $100K. I'm as much of a Mooney fanboy as anyone you'll meet, but based on what you've described, I don't think you're anywhere near a Mooney that the wife will consider an upgrade over that Cirrus. Imagine moving from a 2000 Toyota Corolla to a 1979 911. Drivers will make that swap instantly. But for a passenger who doesn't like the noise, vibration, fatigue, etc. already??? Sorry. I like the analogy. She has been in a C172 (rental), Diamond DA-40 (rental), Diamond DA-42 (demo flight and her favorite), Team Tango (demo) and a few others. Among the single engine certified planes, the SR20 is her least favorite because it is the loudest and you get the most vibrations. So she gave me a low bar to beat, get something which is less noisy than the Cirrus, and less vibration. I am most likely going to do something stupid and be willing to do upgrades. I will focus on a sound airframe and engine (even if near TBO, I am comfortable taking the overhaul risk if the price is right). Then upgrade the interior, avionics, and maybe the paint.Yes I know it is better to spend more capital and get someone else to do the upgrades; but it is easier for my current cash position to do it the other way and risk losing more when I sell the plane. Tim Edited June 6, 2018 by tspear 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted June 6, 2018 Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 Good info. If you think the wife can be convinced on a Mooney, I think the ideal one you're looking for with your budget, butt's in seats, and useful load requirements... is an M20F. The F typically has the best combination of room, range, and useful load. And you should be able to get a really nice one in the $80K range leaving plenty of room for additional upgrades, differed maintenance, etc. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted June 6, 2018 Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 One other point on the noise issue... I find the QT Halo's with custom ear molds from your local audiologist, to be MUCH superior to Bose/Lightspeed/etc with regards to both comfort and noise reduction. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted June 6, 2018 Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 31 minutes ago, tspear said: Oops, forgot to include it. Targeting 50-100K preferably. Steam gauge six pack is fine. Would prefer to have a GNS530 or GTN750 already installed. I guess if I get the wrong plane, I just need to lose more weight.... Tim Glad I asked. With a $100,000 cap and the 4 person mission, you need to look at nice updated M20Fs. You could also buy quite a few M20Js for under $100,000 but there will be some compromise - panel, engine time, perhaps an earlier model ('77, '78...) with lower gross weight, appearance... I would not prejudge your wife's reaction to a Mooney compared to a Cirrus. She might like the differences. We don't brag about Mooney egress but that was not on of her objections. I don't know how high you usually fly but IMO the biggest factor creating fatigue is oxygen. We fly 4 plus hours and arrive much fresher by using oxygen even at 8000'. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted June 6, 2018 Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 @Glenn Is your magnificent F for sale? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted June 6, 2018 Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 @M20F-1968 has a great, updated F based in/near Boston... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted June 6, 2018 Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 11 hours ago, tspear said: Hello, Thinking about what to buy for my next plane. Based on some preliminary research it seems a Mooney can do the job. Basically for the next five years about half my trips will be four people (two short) and bags for a weekend. People and bags will weigh about 750lbs and fly 400 miles no wind. The remaining long distance flights will generally be 450lbs and 800 plus miles. Day trips will be 400lbs of people and bags but generally limited to 2 hours. Other factors, I currently rent a SR20, even with noise canceling headsets (Zulu 2), my wife says the noise and vibration are the most fatigueing aspects of flying. Also, I pretty much avoid O2 level flying, I just do not like wearing a mask or nasal cannula. So what models should I be looking for? And anyone know one in the Boston area for a demo flight or rental? Tim Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk Tim -- I agree with Paul (gsxrpilot) that if your wife is already sensitive to the noise and vibration of a Cirrus, she will be disappointed by a Mooney or any other piston aircraft. Find a way to come up with another $900k and get into a JetProp. We have a couple of former Mooney owners on this site who have done this (BradB & 5TJ). I have flown a long flight with 5TJ in his JetProp. Totally different experience. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tspear Posted June 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 2 minutes ago, Marauder said: Tim -- I agree with Paul (gsxrpilot) that if your wife is already sensitive to the noise and vibration of a Cirrus, she will be disappointed by a Mooney or any other piston aircraft. Find a way to come up with another $900k and get into a JetProp. We have a couple of former Mooney owners on this site who have done this (BradB & 5TJ). I have flown a long flight with 5TJ in his JetProp. Totally different experience. Sensitive is wrong word. She just finds it fatiguing and limits how long we can fly in a day. In the C172, she was fine for four or five hours in a day. In the Cirrus, three to four. (yes it is that much louder). If I had a spare million, I would get a DA-42, it is actually quieter than the Meridian I have flown and does not break the bank to continue flying when I am retired. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradp Posted June 6, 2018 Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 The only thing I imagine will ft your profile of 400 nm and 750 lbs is an F. Even then there will be some compromise. You need 64 gal tanks and 400 nm @ 140kts is about 3 hrs. Plan about 1-2 hrs reserve. Plan 11 gph. So that’s 33+16 = 49 gal. 294 lbs would give you 1044 useful load. There are more Fs than any other that will give the flexibility for useful load at your price point. A high GW (STCd) J that is heavily modified to be stripped down of heavy stuff will also do that job. For a pilot a Mooney is a comfortable airplane. For a passenger they have he benefit of great legroom in the med and long bodies but all other aspects are much less creature friendly compared to a citrus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted June 6, 2018 Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 42 minutes ago, bradp said: The only thing I imagine will ft your profile of 400 nm and 750 lbs is an F. Even then there will be some compromise. You need 64 gal tanks and 400 nm @ 140kts is about 3 hrs. Plan about 1-2 hrs reserve. Plan 11 gph. So that’s 33+16 = 49 gal. 294 lbs would give you 1044 useful load. There are more Fs than any other that will give the flexibility for useful load at your price point. A high GW (STCd) J that is heavily modified to be stripped down of heavy stuff will also do that job. For a pilot a Mooney is a comfortable airplane. For a passenger they have he benefit of great legroom in the med and long bodies but all other aspects are much less creature friendly compared to a citrus. The "book" says an F should be able to do this load, but in reality many Fs have been upgraded and are no better in useful load than Js. In fact, I think the later model Js with the increase TOW would be a better solution than an earlier J or F. My 1975 F has a useful load of 962. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted June 6, 2018 Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 I have not posted this pic in several hours. This is a short (M20E) Mooney. I don't have 4 souls on board very often and I do not ask ladies what they weight but occasionally... this works. An F or a J would work even better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted June 6, 2018 Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 12 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said: I have not posted this pic in several hours. This is a short (M20E) Mooney. I don't have 4 souls on board very often and I do not ask ladies what they weight but occasionally... this works. An F or a J would work even better. Yeah, it has been several hours. You have a 5 o'clock shadow in this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradp Posted June 6, 2018 Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 My early J (77) is 1004 useful load. Any my SN does not qualify for the GW increase There are some planes out there that will get you near 1025 or 1045.... they’re out there. The later Js may be outside the price target though. Fs would do better in that budget. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skydvrboy Posted June 6, 2018 Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 I think an F would be perfect for your mission, but having an F, I may be a bit partial. My useful load is 1,067 lbs, so you can fit your 750 lbs and still carry 52 gallons of fuel. I always flight plan 10 gph and 1 hour reserve (makes the math easy). You could plan for 4 hours at 140 kts or 160 mph giving you 560 knm or 640 miles range easily. If I want to nail actual fuel usage, I plan 14 gph for climb at 105 kts, 8 gph for cruise at 140 kts, and 7 gph for descent at 160 kts, which has always gotten me within a gallon of actual usage. For your longer trips, 800 miles at 160 mph is only 5 hours, and with the easy math, you have 5.4 hours available plus your hour reserve. If your budget is $50k to $100k, don't even mess around with upgrading a cheaper plane. Any F model out there should be within your budget, so get one that is fully upgraded to your liking. I went the other route and bought a "cheap" one for $30k and am upgrading as I go. If I'm not upside down already, I will be soon! I've never been in a Cirrus, so I can't comment as to which is quieter or has less vibrations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted June 17, 2018 Report Share Posted June 17, 2018 On 6/6/2018 at 9:53 AM, mike_elliott said: @Glenn Is your magnificent F for sale? Maybe. I am in the process of buying a boat, so the plane may go soon, but not until after the Mooney Summit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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