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Small GFC 500 Update


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This stuff is killing me.  I really want (need) an AP for my C.  I've flown approaching 300 hours this year, all by hand.  I'm quickly approaching the point where I'd sell my nearly perfect plane for a beater with a good AP. 


Hang in there! Back in the 1990s I flew 7 years without a working autopilot. The issue back then was cost. An autopilot cost half what I paid for the plane and I waited until I was able to afford one.

There are a number of reasonably priced options only a few months out. I would not make a rash decision and buy something else with potentially a whole new set of issues.


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Ya, hang in there.  We are currently flying without an autopilot too.  We refuse to spend thousands to fix the pitch servo on our KFC200.  The plan is to pull the roll servo/mount in November as part of our annual.  Then immediately after the annual is done have an avionics shop pull the rest of the autopilot except the pitch trim system.  Sell whatever parts we can.  Install dual G5's instead.  Then fly like that for a couple years until we can afford to buy the GFC500 and have it installed.

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Some of the best advice I got when buying my first Mooney four years ago, was to find one with a proper autopilot. In all the time since, we see lots of panel upgrades including engine monitors, GPS units, WAAS, glass, GPSS, etc. There have been lots of new paint jobs, cowl upgrades, interiors, etc. But I don't recall a single example of someone installing an autopilot. They are just so expensive to buy and very expensive to install. Even @donkaye with one of the most upgraded Mooneys flying, is still on his factory autopilot. 

This might change in the next year, or two years, or five years as TrueTrax, Garmin, and others bring new/affordable autopilots to the market. But as of today, it's still all speculation on when they might be available.

So for anyone out shopping for a Mooney today... start with a corrosion free airframe and a good autopilot. 

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1 hour ago, Bob - S50 said:

Ya, hang in there.  We are currently flying without an autopilot too.  We refuse to spend thousands to fix the pitch servo on our KFC200.  The plan is to pull the roll servo/mount in November as part of our annual.  Then immediately after the annual is done have an avionics shop pull the rest of the autopilot except the pitch trim system.  Sell whatever parts we can.  Install dual G5's instead.  Then fly like that for a couple years until we can afford to buy the GFC500 and have it installed.

I can’t believe you’d go without an AP for multiple years to save a few thousand (possibly split multiple ways) on a pitch servo. You might even find the working servo has some value if you switch down the road. If I had to pick between a G5 and a working AP the decision to spend on the old junk would be made before I finished typing this response.  

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I can’t believe you’d go without an AP for multiple years to save a few thousand (possibly split multiple ways) on a pitch servo. You might even find the working servo has some value if you switch down the road. If I had to pick between a G5 and a working AP the decision to spend on the old junk would be made before I finished typing this response.  


I know where Bob is coming from. Spending good money on repairing old technology can be like the little Dutch boy and the dike (for those of you not familiar: https://www.dutchgenealogy.nl/why-the-little-dutch-boy-never-put-his-finger-in-the-dike/). Spend $2500 on the pitch servo, only to see the roll computer needing repair a few months later. I racked up half the cost of a new radio trying to keep an old radio alive.

And Bob isn’t the only one. I’m flying with a guy who has a defective electric trim on his Century autopilot. In his case, there is none to be had (almost true, I know of one that is sitting on a shelf but the owner won’t part with it). He too is holding out for a new AP but not due to cost.


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I totally get the reasons for waiting. But the 200 AP is a great system when working and IMO could add a lot of safety to certain types of flying.  Months no problem but years?

Its unfortunate for the used market that some AP manufacturers are reusing current servos for the new systems. It would provide a great source of parts for those trying to extend the life of current gear to have them overflowing on dealer shelves.  Like the 256/525 components that can be purchased for a few $’s now. 

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32 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Not everyone flies far... but Mooneys just make such good traveling airplanes. Of course no way I do this without an autopilot.

We like to fly fast... and far.

This the last 15 days, 5400 miles.

1107153698_ScreenShot2018-07-14at3_31_19PM.thumb.png.79282cda9777fe19802d88c3fac91c72.png

 

That trip looks epic...only wish I could carve out the time this summer. 

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3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Not everyone flies far... but Mooneys just make such good traveling airplanes. Of course no way I do this without an autopilot.

We like to fly fast... and far.

This the last 15 days, 5400 miles.

1107153698_ScreenShot2018-07-14at3_31_19PM.thumb.png.79282cda9777fe19802d88c3fac91c72.png

 

Wow!  What a tour!  You went to Churchill. What was it like?  Is there polar bear viewings this time of year?

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6 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Wow!  What a tour!  You went to Churchill. What was it like?  Is there polar bear viewings this time of year?

We were just a little too early for polar bears. They'd seen one in town a few days before we arrived and everyone was talking about it. But they really hadn't started showing up regularly yet. It was very cold. The temps never got to 50 the whole time we were there. We saw lots of Beluga whales. And just enjoyed going that far away from home.

I'd always wanted to go see Hudson Bay. There's so much history there, etc. And I thought it'd be a good long trip for the Mooney. I'll get a full pirep up soon.

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2 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

We were just a little too early for polar bears. They'd seen one in town a few days before we arrived and everyone was talking about it. But they really hadn't started showing up regularly yet. It was very cold. The temps never got to 50 the whole time we were there. We saw lots of Beluga whales. And just enjoyed going that far away from home.

I'd always wanted to go see Hudson Bay. There's so much history there, etc. And I thought it'd be a good long trip for the Mooney. I'll get a full pirep up soon.

You’ll have to back to see the bears!  There’s a big bear bus on tundra tires I’ve seen in documentaries.

beluga!

 

very cool / I’ll look forward to the report.

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4 hours ago, MIm20c said:

I can’t believe you’d go without an AP for multiple years to save a few thousand (possibly split multiple ways) on a pitch servo. You might even find the working servo has some value if you switch down the road. If I had to pick between a G5 and a working AP the decision to spend on the old junk would be made before I finished typing this response.  

Both the pitch servo and mount needed repair.  It was going to cost a bit over $4000 to fix.  That's 80% of the cost of dual G5's.  And say we get that fixed and the Kg102 dies.  Another couple grand.  And the KI525A and the KI256 and the roll servo.  Multiple chances to spend multiple thousands.

95% of the flying we do is within 250 NM of our home base.  Once each year I take a relatively long trip to Colorado (930 NM).  One partner flies about 10 hours/year because Alaska Airlines keeps him busy enough.  One partner has gone further than 250 NM exactly once in 5 years.  The last partner has gone as far as Billings and will probably do something similar once or twice/year.

Since our autopilot has been inop, we've re-discovered that hand flying is not that hard as long as the air is relatively smooth. Trim it up and it just isn't that hard.

Our ADI has started showing signs or listing.  After we've flown for awhile, it appears to think wings level is about 3 degrees of bank.  And the GS bug on the HSI has started sticking so I only count on non-precision minimums.  By opting to go without the autopilot and get two G5's instead, we'll have two reliable, battery backed up instruments.  Our backup ADI if the primary fails will be the HSI changed into an ADI instead of flying on the turn coordinator.  We can get rid of the vacuum pump and end up saving about 20 pounds of useful load even after the GFC500 is installed.

Who knows, maybe I'll inherit some money and be able to put in the autopilot sooner than later.

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4 hours ago, MIm20c said:

I totally get the reasons for waiting. But the 200 AP is a great system when working and IMO could add a lot of safety to certain types of flying.  Months no problem but years?

Its unfortunate for the used market that some AP manufacturers are reusing current servos for the new systems. It would provide a great source of parts for those trying to extend the life of current gear to have them overflowing on dealer shelves.  Like the 256/525 components that can be purchased for a few $’s now. 

And that's another reason for doing this now.  Right now there are still lots of people like you out there that prefer to keep their KFC200 running.  We have a better chance of selling our parts to help pay for the upgrade.  If we wait until everybody else is replacing them, our parts will be worthless.

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Bob -S50 said.  “Who knows, maybe I'll inherit some money and be able to put in the autopilot sooner than later.”

Best wishes.  Only about 1 in a 100 of my estate planning clients say yes when I ask if they anticipate inheriting assets.  :)

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And that's another reason for doing this now.  Right now there are still lots of people like you out there that prefer to keep their KFC200 running.  We have a better chance of selling our parts to help pay for the upgrade.  If we wait until everybody else is replacing them, our parts will be worthless.


Unfortunately, the Cheap Bast#$d Mooney owner will never pay anywhere near what you invested to repair these products. Add in the availability of the new generation autopilots, many owners will opt to make the additional investment to move to a new platform rather than repair them. Those Cheap Bast$#ds that are left are your customers.


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Both the pitch servo and mount needed repair.  It was going to cost a bit over $4000 to fix.  That's 80% of the cost of dual G5's.  And say we get that fixed and the Kg102 dies.  Another couple grand.  And the KI525A and the KI256 and the roll servo.  Multiple chances to spend multiple thousands.
95% of the flying we do is within 250 NM of our home base.  Once each year I take a relatively long trip to Colorado (930 NM).  One partner flies about 10 hours/year because Alaska Airlines keeps him busy enough.  One partner has gone further than 250 NM exactly once in 5 years.  The last partner has gone as far as Billings and will probably do something similar once or twice/year.
Since our autopilot has been inop, we've re-discovered that hand flying is not that hard as long as the air is relatively smooth. Trim it up and it just isn't that hard.
Our ADI has started showing signs or listing.  After we've flown for awhile, it appears to think wings level is about 3 degrees of bank.  And the GS bug on the HSI has started sticking so I only count on non-precision minimums.  By opting to go without the autopilot and get two G5's instead, we'll have two reliable, battery backed up instruments.  Our backup ADI if the primary fails will be the HSI changed into an ADI instead of flying on the turn coordinator.  We can get rid of the vacuum pump and end up saving about 20 pounds of useful load even after the GFC500 is installed.
Who knows, maybe I'll inherit some money and be able to put in the autopilot sooner than later.


I hear ya brother! It is REALLY hard to spend good money on technology that is aging and failing along the way. Looking back at 27 years of ownership, there were things I would have done differently and not spend money on trying to keep something functional that clearly was headed for the scrap heap. My WX-8 was a prime example of that... As well as getting a LORAN-C working again... And then there was the dying KX-170B...

Considering your current flying requirements, waiting for new, cheaper autopilot options is what I would be doing.


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6 hours ago, amillet said:

Bob -S50 said.  “Who knows, maybe I'll inherit some money and be able to put in the autopilot sooner than later.”

Best wishes.  Only about 1 in a 100 of my estate planning clients say yes when I ask if they anticipate inheriting assets.  :)

It is important to chose your ancestors carefully.

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21 hours ago, Marauder said:

Unfortunately, the Cheap Bast#$d Mooney owner will never pay anywhere near what you invested to repair these products. Add in the availability of the new generation autopilots, many owners will opt to make the additional investment to move to a new platform rather than repair them. Those Cheap Bast$#ds that are left are your customers.


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We don't plan on getting much.  Probably about half of the overhaul exchange price would be a good starting point.  For those units with small problems probably something around half of the difference between overhaul exchange and overhaul outright prices would be a good starting point.  Something somebody could use as a core for an exchange if they want a spare sitting on the bench at home.

But you know, a couple hundred here, a couple hundred there, and pretty soon we're paying for a good portion of the installation price.  KI525A, KI256, KG102A, KC292, KI51A, KA285, KC295, KMT112, KS271, KM275; it all adds up.

Edited by Bob - S50
grammar
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  • 2 weeks later...

Hey guys, just a quick update here- Garmin is currently working on my 231 to certify the GFC500 for the Mooneys (yay!!).  They are planning on having it back to me mid-November if all goes well so I'm assuming the STC will be issued somewhere in that timeframe.  This will likely cover all the mid-bodies and hopefully more, but I don't have the details on that just yet.  

It's looking like they are going to STC it with the whole nine yards- yaw dampener, go around/ missed approach functionality & button, of course all new servos and electric trim, etc.  

 

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2 hours ago, 81X said:

Hey guys, just a quick update here- Garmin is currently working on my 231 to certify the GFC500 for the Mooneys (yay!!).  They are planning on having it back to me mid-November if all goes well so I'm assuming the STC will be issued somewhere in that timeframe.  This will likely cover all the mid-bodies and hopefully more, but I don't have the details on that just yet.  

It's looking like they are going to STC it with the whole nine yards- yaw dampener, go around/ missed approach functionality & button, of course all new servos and electric trim, etc.  

 

Good news!

lucky duck how did you get that deal?

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  • 1 month later...

New GFC 500 Update:

GFC 500 Certification Programs Currently In-progress:

Mooney M20

  • Models: F, G, J, K, M, R, S

All other Mooney models appear to have been completely removed from any certification plans for the next 12 months.

Edited by Reid
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@Reid Thanks for the update.  I hate to see they removed the E model from the list.  I did notice when I checked the website this message at the bottom:

"This list will be updated regularly as Garmin continues expanding GFC 500 availability to a wide range of single-engine piston aircraft. If you would like to express interest in aircraft models not listed above, please email Aviation.Sales@Garmin.com (your interest will be recorded, although not all messages will generate a response.)"

So I did just that.  I sent and e-mail asking that the "E" be added back to the Mooney list.  Just throwing that out there for the non-"F" community out there in case you want to try to get our planes back on the list.

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8 minutes ago, bob865 said:

@Reid Thanks for the update.  I hate to see they removed the E model from the list.  I did notice when I checked the website this message at the bottom:

"This list will be updated regularly as Garmin continues expanding GFC 500 availability to a wide range of single-engine piston aircraft. If you would like to express interest in aircraft models not listed above, please email Aviation.Sales@Garmin.com (your interest will be recorded, although not all messages will generate a response.)"

So I did just that.  I sent and e-mail asking that the "E" be added back to the Mooney list.  Just throwing that out there for the non-"F" community out there in case you want to try to get our planes back on the list.

I am sure it is a marketing decision.  Maybe if they get 15 PO's from people with E's and C's :). The F,G,J and K's all share the same airframe as does the S,M,R's. It looks like 2 airframes they will be targeting initially based on potential sales.

 

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