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My airport is served by the infamous MXE VORTAC. What I am trying to understand is how a VOR can be out of service and an associated VOR approach (RWY24) has no NOTAM indicating that the approach is out of service? Anyone ever see this occur?

So, if I file back to my airport, what will Philly approach do? 

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This is the standing NOTAM making FROSE intersection NA.

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Could it be done as an overlay with GPS??

I guess they will clear you to the airport and maybe even the VOR approach. 

Of course a moot point right now since it appears to be foggy with 100 to 200 foot ceilings in the general area.

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

Could it be done as an overlay with GPS??

I guess they will clear you to the airport and maybe even the VOR approach. 

Of course a moot point right now since it appears to be foggy with 100 to 200 foot ceilings in the general area.

 

 

 

 

No legal overlay at the present time. The GTN has the overlay GPS but it isn't legal to fly. Nor is the new GTN "visual approach" capability I had upgraded. We are slated for RNAVs since we widened the runway to the required 60'. I was planning a trip this weekend up north and the weather will be better but if still IFR, I wasn't sure what they would do if I requested the VOR approach.

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Well, you COULD fly the RNAV GPS 11 approach to Chester County, then execute the missed which takes you to MXE, legally identified for that approach from GPS, and thence cancel and proceed into New Garden if the weather is basic VFR.   If it doesn't look so good, land at Chester County. 

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2 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Well, you COULD fly the RNAV GPS 11 approach to Chester County, then execute the missed which takes you to MXE, legally identified for that approach from GPS, and thence cancel and proceed into New Garden if the weather is basic VFR.   If it doesn't look so good, land at Chester County. 

The missed will take you back up to 2400' by the time you get to Modena. If the weather was at the MVA of 2200', I have been able to get a visual from them. But if it is in the no man's land of 1040' to 2200', it will be tough to get in. And being a Cheap Bast$%d, paying Signature $10 to use Chester County, I would rather land at Reading and eat a meal.

It was easier when I was based at S37. I would inform Harrisburg that I intended to land at S37 but would fly the approach into KLNS. The final approach course for the VOR Runway 31 at KLNS was close enough to S37 that you could drop to the MDA after the procedure turn and if you had a visual of the airport and met the weather requirements you could ask for SVFR (if needed) to get in.

I'm just trying to figure out how they cannot issue a NOTAM for the approach at my airport.

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1 hour ago, Marauder said:

I'm just trying to figure out how they cannot issue a NOTAM for the approach at my airport.

No such NOTAM needs to be issued.

The MXE is OTS.  End of story.  Any procedure based on using the VOR (not just it's LAT/LONG as in an RNAV procedure) is automatically NA.

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No such NOTAM needs to be issued.
The MXE is OTS.  End of story.  Any procedure based on using the VOR (not just it's LAT/LONG as in an RNAV procedure) is automatically NA.


Gus - so does this mean Philly will know that the approach is NA?

Also, since it is used in the missed approach procedure for multiple approaches for KMQS, what happens to these procedures?

What will be interesting to see this weekend is what routing I will get with MXE OTS.


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3 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 


Gus - so does this mean Philly will know that the approach is NA?

Also, since it is used in the missed approach procedure for multiple approaches for KMQS, what happens to these procedures?

What will be interesting to see this weekend is what routing I will get with MXE OTS.


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Philly would certainly know that MXE is OTS.  A controller is "supposed to know" and not issue that clearance.  However, I've definitely heard controllers forget and give impossible clearances.  I'm not sure why, or how this happens, but as long as humans are involved....

And yes, if the missed approach at an airport involves an OTS navaid, an alternate missed approach should be issued along with the approach clearance.

Bottom line:  pre-flight planning includes reading the NOTAMS.  The PIC is ultimately responsible for knowing if outages will affect the flight.

It is interesting that you bring up the subject of NOTAMS.  EBACE 2018 (European Bizav) has asked everyone to submit "the worst NOTAM".  The entire NOTAM system is under review because there are now so many NOTAMS issued and many are just plain undecipherable by the average pilot.  I suspect that a new system will be forth-coming.  I have been into airports where there were 8 pages of printed NOTAMS.

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54 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

It is interesting that you bring up the subject of NOTAMS.  EBACE 2018 (European Bizav) has asked everyone to submit "the worst NOTAM".  The entire NOTAM system is under review because there are now so many NOTAMS issued and many are just plain undecipherable by the average pilot.  I suspect that a new system will be forth-coming.  I have been into airports where there were 8 pages of printed NOTAMS.

I think the excessive use of abbreviated text in aviation is an anachronism and a safety hazard.   I think the weather and NOTAM abbreviations are left over from when all that stuff was sent over teletypes with low baud rates and conserving link bandwidth and teletype paper was an issue.   Neither apply any more.   Most EFBs and Wx apps will expand abbreviated METARs and other weather info, but NOTAMs could use some reform toward readability. 

Glad to hear there's some movement in this area.  I welcome any improvements.

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Philly would certainly know that MXE is OTS.  A controller is "supposed to know" and not issue that clearance.  However, I've definitely heard controllers forget and give impossible clearances.  I'm not sure why, or how this happens, but as long as humans are involved....

And yes, if the missed approach at an airport involves an OTS navaid, an alternate missed approach should be issued along with the approach clearance.

Bottom line:  pre-flight planning includes reading the NOTAMS.  The PIC is ultimately responsible for knowing if outages will affect the flight.

It is interesting that you bring up the subject of NOTAMS.  EBACE 2018 (European Bizav) has asked everyone to submit "the worst NOTAM".  The entire NOTAM system is under review because there are now so many NOTAMS issued and many are just plain undecipherable by the average pilot.  I suspect that a new system will be forth-coming.  I have been into airports where there were 8 pages of printed NOTAMS.

 

The biggest issue I have with the NOTAM system is just the raw number you get for a briefing. There is no way you could adsorb all of the content.

 

BTW - this why I created this thread. I was doing an early review for a flight this weekend and I noticed that NOTAM for the VOR approach to my home airport wasn’t there. Also noticed my destination airport’s 5000+ foot long runway was shortened by 3560’!

 

0fcd8d170f04144717a146fd82d1789c.jpg

 

 

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1 hour ago, EricJ said:

I think the excessive use of abbreviated text in aviation is an anachronism and a safety hazard.   

True.  But think of how many pages there will be using plain text!

There are multiple issue besides the abreviations.  We need a system that will intelligently present pilot-need-to-know info based on time/conditions of arrival.  (If it's CAVOK why must the NOTAMS present all the minimums changes for a temporary crane at the airport?) and we need a system which orders NOTAMS based on importance/safety.  (A closed taxiway to a corporate hangar is not as important as a closed runway.

Some NOTAM services do organize NOTAMS, but the raw NOTAM collection is a hodge podge.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

True.  But think of how many pages there will be using plain text!

There are multiple issue besides the abreviations.  We need a system that will intelligently present pilot-need-to-know info based on time/conditions of arrival.  (If it's CAVOK why must the NOTAMS present all the minimums changes for a temporary crane at the airport?) and we need a system which orders NOTAMS based on importance/safety.  (A closed taxiway to a corporate hangar is not as important as a closed runway.

Some NOTAM services do organize NOTAMS, but the raw NOTAM collection is a hodge podge.

 

 

This is why I stopped using DUATS less than a year after I started . . . Their weather reports were even worse! Way too much irrelevant stuff, weather and NOTAMs for every airport 200nm to either side of your flight path, including that far off of each end, too.

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5 minutes ago, Hank said:

This is why I stopped using DUATS less than a year after I started . . . Their weather reports were even worse! Way too much irrelevant stuff, weather and NOTAMs for every airport 200nm to either side of your flight path, including that far off of each end, too.

Well, Hank, you're just not doing it according to the FARs!

The reg says, "ALL AVAILABLE INFORMATION..."

You probably need to research the history of all the territory you'll be flying over, too!  :lol:  Just in case.

§ 91.103 Preflight action.

Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight.

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4 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Well, Hank, you're just not doing it according to the FARs!

The reg says, "ALL AVAILABLE INFORMATION..."

You probably need to research the history of all the territory you'll be flying over, too!  :lol:  Just in case.

§ 91.103 Preflight action.

Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight.

I just never understood the relationship between flying from WV to KY to the weather in Boston and NOTAMs for airports in VA.

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To read that much data would take a full day.

The data won’t be fresh until the day of the flight.

Is it possible for a human pilot to be familiar with all the data that is available?

Now that a pilot can have updated airport and weather info on an iPad (or other) updated continuously...

Does the rule need an update?

If @Marauder enters his flight plan into fltplan.com, does it automatically check all the ground and space based nav equipment (he intends to use) for outages? 

If a VOR is out of service, shouldn’t WingX be aware of it and light a visible indicator like a yellow dot at the VOR location...?

A notam layer would make a lot of sense... touch the dot get the notams...  turn the layer off when not needed... zoom in for specific notams of taxiways blocked by construction...

WingX does a great job of TFR visual notifications...

There seem to be a few things that are ready for digital communication updates...

PP thoughts only, not a cfi...

Best regards,

-a-

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So I looked up MXE and COL (coltsneck in NJ) on WingX ...

I clicked the VOR symbol and got a menu that showed Notams for the VOR....

Clicked The notam button And was told... no notams available...

So.... is there something going on with the major VORs in the area?

Does WingX not know about them?

Best regards,

-a-

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7 minutes ago, carusoam said:

This could be the equivalent of a national emergency...

All east coast flights were purportedly routed through MXE...

For additional info... search ‘funky cold’ to get to the Modena VOR challenge...

:)

-a-

I'm going to try it this weekend to see what I get. I'll bet since I am a /G I will still get Modena.

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Somebody at BK is laughing at me now...

If I have to go /g that’s going to require me to get my Wingman subscription up and running again...

Like studying notams for a day... it takes another day getting a subscription update each time I fly....

It appeared like COL may have went out of service for a few months... I assumed my equipment was failing...

(VFR flight within 20mi of my home drome... simple flight plan had Airport, VOR, return...)

Its fun being me... :)

-a-

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11 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I'm going to try it this weekend to see what I get. I'll bet since I am a /G I will still get Modena.

I’ll bet you will, they are still using MXE as primary nav fix out of KILG. Under the minimum rule which seems ambiguous should allow the use of MXE even thou decomm’ed

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13 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I'm going to try it this weekend to see what I get. I'll bet since I am a /G I will still get Modena.

See if your VOR indicator sends up a flag...

Or you just get crackling silence instead of a station ID...

Best regards,

-a-

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Current Modena Notams...

two locations for notams...  bottom left (always obtain a weather....) and the big sign that says no MXE notams...

distant...0

local...0

fdc...0

What does this all mean if your VOR isn’t working?

I still have Brian’s BBQ in my flight plan:)

71D642E6-B4C2-4E7A-967C-737E4490579C.png

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8 hours ago, carusoam said:

Current Modena Notams...

two locations for notams...  bottom left (always obtain a weather....) and the big sign that says no MXE notams...

distant...0

local...0

fdc...0

What does this all mean if your VOR isn’t working?

I still have Brian’s BBQ in my flight plan:)

 

I think where the FAA will snag you by your little toe is the X-Wing disclaimer that I circled. It sounds like they expect you to get a full FAA briefing.

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21 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Philly would certainly know that MXE is OTS.  A controller is "supposed to know" and not issue that clearance.  However, I've definitely heard controllers forget and give impossible clearances.  I'm not sure why, or how this happens, but as long as humans are involved....

And yes, if the missed approach at an airport involves an OTS navaid, an alternate missed approach should be issued along with the approach clearance.

I think if the published missed is na due to an OTS fix but an alternate missed approach is depicted on the plate there would be an fdc notam. ATC would have you fly the alternate missed or negotiate another. But this is assuming the approach is flyable to begin with and that's not the case here. In this case the same OTS vortac used for the approach is also used for the published missed. Bottom line is this airport has no IAP when MXE is out and clearance to it should not be requested. Frankly I’m not sure what the OP is unclear about. It’s spelled out very clearly in the NOTAM. If he tried to “absorb” it instead of “adsorb” it as he calls it maybe it’ll sink in! How many more NOTAMS does he need to tell him MXE is out?! Spare the electrons and go somewhere else.

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