nfonville

ADS-B Garmin 327 to 330ES swap

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Starting to get serious about the ADS-B requirement. I may do some serious panel changes in the future but I have a high time engine and looking at an expensive bill coming on my bravo. LIke to wait until the engine is done before replacing a perfectly capable system I have in place.  So can this been done as simple as I think?

I currently have a Garmin GTX 327. Was thinking simple swap to a GTX 330ES.  Currently, my Garmin 480 is interfaced to the 327 to start the trip timer. Altitude is coming from the encoding altimeter on the King KFC150AP.

So the question is: Can I just simply rewire the connector matching everything to the new pin locations and have this thing work. I know there is paperwork and programming on the 330 for aircraft info. Since my GNS480 is certified and currently taking to the garmin 327, it looks like all the connections for the 330 are in place.

Am I missing something?

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*Members that donate $10 or more do not see advertisements*

Do you have the 330 already?

We know a guy... with lots of answers... and used boxes...  @Alan Fox

Best regards,

-a-

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The cost of the 330ES box vs. the GTX-345 is probably around $2000, The labor shouldn't be a lot more. The GTX345 can display ADS-B in on most panel displays and can send things like AHRS, weather and traffic wirelessly to your handheld devices.

 

 

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The used market has some 330ES units. I'm technical and can do the install myself to save the install cost.  I'm trying to keep the cost as low as possible because I may replace everything in a few years after the engine.  I'm getting ADS-B data on foreflight on my IPAD w/ Stratux.  I would like all the bells and whistles but the GNS480 is not the base to build a new panel from. I may go avidyne or GTN750. Then I would rewire and make everything interface to the displays.

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3 minutes ago, nfonville said:

The used market has some 330ES units. I'm technical and can do the install myself to save the install cost.  I'm trying to keep the cost as low as possible because I may replace everything in a few years after the engine.  I'm getting ADS-B data on foreflight on my IPAD w/ Stratux.  I would like all the bells and whistles but the GNS480 is not the base to build a new panel from. I may go avidyne or GTN750. Then I would rewire and make everything interface to the displays.

Why do double duty with ADS-B?  Spend the extra money now on the GTX 345 and use it when you do your upgrade later.

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I would seriously consider the extra money for the 345 could I find one in the used market. I'm really trying to find out if I'm missing something on the complexity of making the swap. Based on a radio shop quote the 345 was going to cost about 7K installed.  If i can install the 330 by simply rewiring the connector and getting paperwork done it would cost $4500 less.  I just know when engine time comes it will be spare no expense. Do everything firewall forward and I see that between 70 and 80K. I bought the plane knowing this so no surprise but just want to get legal as cheaply as possible for now.

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45 minutes ago, nfonville said:

Am I missing something?

WAAS?  ADSB requires a WAAS source. For the 330ES, the WAAS has to come from somewhere. Is the 480 WAAS? I did a 330ES install in my M20C but I had a 530W to provide the WAAS source.

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While looking for things for the long body...

the 345R may make some additional sense... WnB advantages...

Big G also has a box that supplies the waas signal if the ship doesn’t have one otherwise...

I just know how much a new powerplant can put a dent in the other finances...

Best regards,

-a-

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Currently, nothing in the panel is really modern.  It's all very serviceable and better than most I've had in the past. KFC150 system and GNS480 GPS which works well and I have become comfortable with.  My IPad with Stratux gives me the same functionality as the plane installed Ryan 7000 TCAD system, Garmin XM receiver (of some flavor) interfaced to a King MFD150 MFD.  Good stuff in 1998 but outdated now. A new panel will include remote mount options for WnB. At 960 UL, I would love to shed a few pounds too. Although less money, the panel options and choices is more overwhelming than the engine project. No first annual yet which is always an unknown. Flown it 60 hours since mid January and see it being a keeper for a while.  Just don't want wait until the absolute last minute on the ADS-B out. Trying to figure out the complexity of this swap. Looks pretty simple, almost too simple.

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Nfonville,

I missed the usual welcome aboard... or congrats on your first post, since you’ve been an MSer for years!

I always ask Bravo pilots i first meet... if they are familiar with the Vbands on their exhaust system?

When discussing well used Bravo engines... the exhaust system is getting near OH time as well...

Are you familiar with these topics? These can be a bit expensive... but if you are not familiar with their issues, they can be very costly...

Just preventative type info, not stirring anything up...

Best regards,

-a-

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Yes, familiar with Bravo and Turbo related issues/cost. Learning more all the time.  Already had first exhaust crack and DMax had part manufactured by Dawley. Expensive and VBands have to be replaced next time opened. This is my 4th Mooney and 6th plane.

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nfonville,

I have recently installed a GTX33ES with a GNS480.  Even though its a remote unit, I used the flat tray and installed it in the RHS stack in a C172, and it gets covered by the RHS overlay.

It's a little triangle of wires:

Arinc and RS232 wires between the GKNS480 and GTX33ES.  

Encoder to GNS480 for altitude

Encoder to GTX33ES for altidude

GTX33 to audio panel and power and ground. 

I used a transcal encoder with 2 serial outputs, and powered it from the GTX33ES for a nice easy install.  I used the old transponder antenna, but installed new RG400.

A already had a GLDL39-3D  for ADSB in.

I have a spare GTX33ES if you are interested, and would take your GTX327 in trade.

And I would recommend this setup if you want to stay in the $2-3k range installed (with some of your own time).

Don

 

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And I've also gone the other way and put together packages like this:

GTX345 with built in encoder

GNS480/GNS530/GTN750

I highly recommend the built in encoder - it reduces the amount of cross wiring, and you will save a lot of money in the long run with calibrations.

And I highly recommend the GTX345 for all its features and its long term compatibility.  But it is going to be a $6k installation, who would have though a few years ago we would be taking about $6k transponder installations.

 

Don

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17 hours ago, nfonville said:

I would seriously consider the extra money for the 345 could I find one in the used market. I'm really trying to find out if I'm missing something on the complexity of making the swap. Based on a radio shop quote the 345 was going to cost about 7K installed.  If i can install the 330 by simply rewiring the connector and getting paperwork done it would cost $4500 less.  I just know when engine time comes it will be spare no expense. Do everything firewall forward and I see that between 70 and 80K. I bought the plane knowing this so no surprise but just want to get legal as cheaply as possible for now.

Woah $7k sounds steep for that!  Back in 2016 I swapped my 330 for a GTX-345 using my GNS480 like you have for the WASS source and my bill was $5900 and $4500 of that was for the new GTX-345.  I can't imagine the 327 is that much different?  As it was explained to me a few wires run from my 480 to the 345, one to the audio panel and the same tray was used.  I would get some more quotes but definitely agree with the others to get the 345 especially if you plan on keeping the aircraft for a while .  The ADSB- in/out to the iPad and my MFD is awesome! 

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Aero don points out the required wiring connections.  It will definitely require a repinning and multiple new wiring runs depending on the encoder method.  The timer function is a single wire to ground IIRC so you can’t use that for the ADSB interface between the 480 and the 330ES and call it a day.  You’ll also need an Airinc connection if you display TIS-B.   And another TIS connect wire. So that is definitely one and maybe a second required run of shielded twisted pair and the RS-232 is actually a three conductor shielded.  Then you’re going to want audio panel alerting for traffic and altitude deviations.  And you’ll need an encoder of some measure- either split between the 480 and 330ES or one with multiple rs232 outputs. You can do this in grey code it just more tedious.  The 330’will not spit out altitude data to the 480 over the Adsb connection. Lots of wiring is the jist.  The install is gong to take you between 10 and 20 hrs depending on your current setup and technical ability. 

Also it’s an interface that requires an STC for the Adsb much like a king or trig transponder.  It will require a 337 with very specific language about ADSb compliance. There’s no wiggle room for considering this a minor.  So you’ll need either a really friendly IA who is willing to do avionics installs or an avionics shop willing to work with you (good luck in the later).   Not a task for the faint of heart, but doable in the right circumstances. Finding the stc installation manual is a small feat but can be done. Garmin tells its dealer network not to distribute manuals or else. 

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If the question is, "can you connect a 480 to a 330ES to be ADSB compliant?", the answer is yes. That's what we have in our plane. We bought our plane with the 480 and a non-ES 330. We had the 330 upgraded by Garmin. It seemed to be pretty simple for the avionics shop. 

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2 hours ago, AaronDC8402 said:

If the question is, "can you connect a 480 to a 330ES to be ADSB compliant?", the answer is yes. That's what we have in our plane. We bought our plane with the 480 and a non-ES 330. We had the 330 upgraded by Garmin. It seemed to be pretty simple for the avionics shop. 

Yup I was planning to do this same set up but got talked out of a few AMU’s for the 345 

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Ok, I'm getting to be in the same boat, and since we're talking about the 330 this seems like a good place to ask.  I have a 430w with the 330. It currently displays TIS traffic on the 430.  If I just pull the 330 and have it upgraded to ES, is there anything else that needs done? I'm trying to do this economically because I'm trying to save my avionics dollars for an autopilot

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44 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Ok, I'm getting to be in the same boat, and since we're talking about the 330 this seems like a good place to ask.  I have a 430w with the 330. It currently displays TIS traffic on the 430.  If I just pull the 330 and have it upgraded to ES, is there anything else that needs done? I'm trying to do this economically because I'm trying to save my avionics dollars for an autopilot

I believe you need to connect the 430w to the 330es for the wass source and a software upgrade for the 430. 

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2 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Ok, I'm getting to be in the same boat, and since we're talking about the 330 this seems like a good place to ask.  I have a 430w with the 330. It currently displays TIS traffic on the 430.  If I just pull the 330 and have it upgraded to ES, is there anything else that needs done? I'm trying to do this economically because I'm trying to save my avionics dollars for an autopilot

I think we needed one additional wire between the 480 and 330ES after the ES upgrade. 

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2 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Ok, I'm getting to be in the same boat, and since we're talking about the 330 this seems like a good place to ask.  I have a 430w with the 330. It currently displays TIS traffic on the 430.  If I just pull the 330 and have it upgraded to ES, is there anything else that needs done? I'm trying to do this economically because I'm trying to save my avionics dollars for an autopilot

Nope, that will do it. I had a very similar situation with a 530W and a 330. Get the ES upgrade and reinstall. Done.

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It does need an RS-232 connection in the ADSB+ format. 

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2 hours ago, bradp said:

It does need an RS-232 connection in the ADSB+ format. 

Yup.  Got a quote from a local shop.  $1800.  They’ll pull my 330, install a loaner 330, and I can take my plane with me.  When the upgraded unit gets back from Garmin (quoted 2-3 weeks), I’ll head back down, and they’ll do the install with the new wire while I wait.  Seems like a pretty fair deal to me.  

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On 5/22/2018 at 1:10 AM, ragedracer1977 said:

Yup.  Got a quote from a local shop.  $1800.  They’ll pull my 330, install a loaner 330, and I can take my plane with me.  When the upgraded unit gets back from Garmin (quoted 2-3 weeks), I’ll head back down, and they’ll do the install with the new wire while I wait.  Seems like a pretty fair deal to me.  

If that includes the 330 to 330ES upgrade from Garmin and installation that's a great deal.

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