sdflysurf

Mooney has been sitting

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Hey All,

As I mentioned in a previous post - I Just bought a Mooney 1968 M20F Executive.  Thing is that it has been sitting in the dry desert area for almost 8 years with no flying, my very trusted friend A&P was out on the first visit prior to purchase and found it to have good compression and looks promising (but we bought it with the understanding we might need a top or complete overhaul).  I am meeting with my A&P today about getting it repaired (at the remote airport) to Ferry and then continue some repairs at my home airport.  I would love to hear your comments about this process, here are the things I am planning to discuss with him today:

This might be multiple trips:

-Cleaning the plane (mobile car detailer?), Waxing later when we get it home (I heard to use Collinite No. 845 Insulator Wax)

-Replace Tires and Tubes (looking at the FC3 6.00-6 for mains? and FC3 5.00-5 for front?)

-Replace Battery and ELT Battery

-Drain fuel and inspect tanks, treat if necessary

-Check all engine compartment wiring and replace most if not all hoses and replace air filter.

-Start process for sitting engine (drain oil and inspect with a borescope? condition engine and prep for starting with new oil/filter, check mags, etc - would like suggestions to cover all bases)

-lube control rod links/bushings

-Get Ferry Permit

-Fly back to home airport and then start annual and replacing the windshield and swap out the Old King radio with a MX-170 (slide in replacement!).

 

Anything else I should add to the list for getting the airplane ready for the ferry flight?  Or things I should consider when I bring it back home?  I will take pictures and report back!

 

 

Edited by sdflysurf
control rods

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I'd think the landing gear pucks would also need to be possibly replaced after sitting that long.

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Check the brakes and consider changing the brake fluid. I did what you are doing once and the brake fluid had turned into a yellow syrup. 

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Even though it has been in the dry desert I know you will still look for corrosion,  but I'd especially look for nesting sites and evidence of rodents, birds and other creatures.

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50 minutes ago, sdflysurf said:

I would love to hear your comments about this process,

Call your bank and order a bunch of new checks.  Not kidding or joking....

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Call your bank and order a bunch of new checks.  Not kidding or joking....


I found it easier to just give them my bank account. Cuts down on the check writing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
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The main concern for me would be corrosion on the cam or lifters. When they are dry and you try starting the engine it could be several hundred revolutions before oil gets pumped onto the cam surface. You could ruin a cam and lifters that might be ok if prelubed. Nobody ever mentioned this but what would it hurt to fill the engine to the top of the filler neck with cheap motor oil, pull the lower spark plugs, let it sit a few hours, pull the prop through 10 or 20 times and then drain the oil. It sure seems to me that would be cheap insurance. Even the rings and cylinders would get lubed.

Or, am I missing something?

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Personally, I'd be worried about that cam, hanging up there in the air, with no oil on it for 8 years, pitting.  If that happened, the cam will be OK for a hundred hours or so and then it will gall.  As long as you priced in an engine overhaul, then there will be no surprises.  

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44 minutes ago, nels said:

The main concern for me would be corrosion on the cam or lifters. When they are dry and you try starting the engine it could be several hundred revolutions before oil gets pumped onto the cam surface. You could ruin a cam and lifters that might be ok if prelubed. Nobody ever mentioned this but what would it hurt to fill the engine to the top of the filler neck with cheap motor oil, pull the lower spark plugs, let it sit a few hours, pull the prop through 10 or 20 times and then drain the oil. It sure seems to me that would be cheap insurance. Even the rings and cylinders would get lubed.

Or, am I missing something?

I think filling it up with oil would put oil in some places you don't want it like fuel pump, mags etc if you had it full enough to reach the cam.  I think it might start flowing out in other areas  before reaching the cam.  

However, what  about filling it with oil to 8 quarts removing the plugs squirting a little in the cylinders and then hand rotating the engine about 50 or more revolutions  to get oil moving throughout the engine?

I have done this on an IO360 engine and oil started flowing out the oil hoses.

 

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43 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

I think filling it up with oil would put oil in some places you don't want it like fuel pump, mags etc if you had it full enough to reach the cam.  I think it might start flowing out in other areas  before reaching the cam.  

However, what  about filling it with oil to 8 quarts removing the plugs squirting a little in the cylinders and then hand rotating the engine about 50 or more revolutions  to get oil moving throughout the engine?

I have done this on an IO360 engine and oil started flowing out the oil hoses.

 

All of that turning still won’t splash any oil on the camshaft and lifter faces.  It needs excess oil thrown from the crankshaft.  Turning the engine upside down would be more effective, but impossible.

Clarence

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It seems like a lot of work to prep it for a ferry flight just to tear it all down again to make it safe and airworthy. Would it be easier to break it down and put it on a truck to get it out of there and over to the shop of your choice?

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9 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

All of that turning still won’t splash any oil on the camshaft and lifter faces.  It needs excess oil thrown from the crankshaft.  Turning the engine upside down would be more effective, but impossible.

Clarence

You could always lawnmower it (fill it full of oil) then drain it off, but if the cam and lifters had corrosion it will now have oily corrosion:D

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Fuel cap o-rings probably need changing.  They are like $2 at aircraft spruce.  

MS29513-010 FUEL RESIST O-RING
MS29513-338 O-RING

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Couple of things , Just start the engine and let it Idle ,  I have put cams in engines w/300 hours , I have run them out also .... A galled cam will not stop an engine , and all cams don't gall from sitting , Start it up , run it to temp for 30 minutes or so , change the oil , look for metal in the filter or screen....If no metal , fly it for 10 hours and then change the oil and filter again , check it for metal , and if no metal , Fly the crap out of it.......  Av gas can sit for 10 years and still be good ,  I have burned a lot of old fuel in my runners , if you are that worried , top it off before you ferry it ,  Don't listen to all the "experts" if it has low time on the motor , you can IRAN it with new cam, followers , bearings gaskets for about 10K and fly it another 2K hours....  If you haven't already acquired the MX170 , the Kings are better radios , just archaic to tune... Get a local A&P you trust , and put your trust in him , and don't second guess him....

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One question...

How much M20F time do you have?

 

Then there is a bunch of follow-up questions to that one...

Are you piling up a bunch of risk without mentioning them?

Your first item on the list is the furthest from the importance of ferrying this plane... wash and wax?

How far is Home? 1/2 hour flight?  Or across the country?

 

How much flight experience do you have?  Ever fly a plane that has been sitting for eight years?

 

 

I bought an M20C. It sat for two years...

It stuck a valve within its first 10hours of Transition Training...  it was not going to hold any altitude for long...

It was good to have a CFI on board for that experience...

 

So you bought a plane...

1) out of inspection for 8 years...

2) Did you do a cursory PPI of some form?

3) Did you want to review the 100hour inspection list to see what some people would have done?

4) Is your A&P joining you on this trip?

5) Are you going to be the PIC for this ferry flight?

6) I get the feeling there are rules about ferry flights...  check in to them.  They probably have some limitations about who can fly it, and how far it can go.

7) Why not get it back in Annual / AW before flying it away?  Eliminating unknown risks...

8) What is plan B when the engine decides to run rough...? Over the desert?

 

Maybe you mentioned all the details in the other thread...

I’m a dad with a pair of 20 year olds in my life... I start asking Dad questions quickly...  :)

Best regards,

-a-

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Thanks All,  I have passed the info on to the A&P and he was very appreciative that I did a lot of homework before meeting with him.  He does have experience turning engines that have sat for a while and we'll be going into more detail soon, also good to know he has Mooney experience!

He has his checklists of course, but it's just good for me to be informed and confirm the work being performed so I have my copies of the POH, parts list, service manual, and 100hr inspection list.

I added some things to the first visit list - order some more bank checks, check landing gear pucks, fuel cap o-rings, brake system check, and definitely using borescope to inspect everywhere for rodents/birds.

To answer some of the other questions: The plane needs cleaned - its at the top of my list because it is easiest to knock off and I don't want to do inspection work on a plane that is filthy.  The plane is about 3 hours drive away and no A&P for many miles, so my A&P will join me on the first trip and perform the ferry work with plenty of parts in hand and if he gets it a ferry permit then I will call in a Mooney trained ferry pilot (potentially another visit) to bring it to our home airport.  Our home airport has a hanger for the A&P to finish the annual and then do some other cosmetic things before we start really flying it (and I mean transition training first for me).

He did initially check it out a bit before we bought it and is very hopeful that he'll actually be able to complete much of the annual while we are there and have very little left when we return to make it airworthy....I like his optimism! But I am cautiously pessimistic.  It will probably be two visits before we bring it back home.

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Check out for corrosion in the wheel wells, and along the spar caps, also look in the fuel tanks for the same corrosion.  Other than that, i think everyone has got it covered.  

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There are probably some threads around here regarding first annuals and what people found out they needed...

One thing that sticks in my mind was all the screws my M20C had were not stainless.  Many were frozen in place.  There are many inspection panels you want to see what’s on the other side of.

Be Ready with screws and powered driver and fresh nibs... and tools to get out a stuck screw... it’s a day or two to remove all the panels and put them back... you will know the condition of most hoses and control rods this way...

There are two interior panels that hide the fuel level sensors and rubber fuel hose links... they are often in leaky condition...

Drain and replace the brake fluid... do you have electric flaps?

what gear ratio does your plane have for the electric gear?  40:1 or 20:1?  One is stronger than the other...

my first memories of getting an old plane...

Best regards,

-a-

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4 minutes ago, carusoam said:

There are probably some threads around here regarding first annuals and what people found out they needed...

One thing that sticks in my mind was all the screws my M20C had were not stainless.  Many were frozen in place.  There are many inspection panels you want to see what’s on the other side of.

Be Ready with screws and powered driver and fresh nibs... and tools to get out a stuck screw... it’s a day or two to remove all the panels and put them back... you will know the condition of most hoses and control rods this way...

There are two interior panels that hide the fuel level sensors and rubber fuel hose links... they are often in leaky condition...

Drain and replace the brake fluid... do you have electric flaps?

what gear ratio does your plane have for the electric gear?  40:1 or 20:1?  One is stronger than the other...

my first memories of getting an old plane...

Best regards,

-a-

Good to keep in mind about the screws!  He did mention flushing out the fuel lines and detaching at something he called the spider.  He also said he is bringing replacement hoses.

Regarding the brakes/flaps - looks like I have the manual flaps (picture attached).

Regarding the electric gear - I don't know the ratio, I don't see it mentioned in the POH, where would I find this out?

Thanks for your help - I'm definitely excited/thrilled/nervous/cautious/etc.  My wife and kids can't get me to stop talking about it.

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Yep, that’s the flap handle... draining the hydraulic fluid for brakes is the same fluid as the flaps...

if the fluid leaks, the flaps stop working before the brakes....

The gear ratio is probably stamped on the gear box.  Not too important right now...

The spider is part of the fuel injection system...

Ever fly a fuel injected plane?

How many hours do you have?

 

You have a long way to go on this project...  Try and contain the excitement, until after you get it home...  the added pressure isn’t going to help your decision making skills...

More daditude...

-a- 

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There has got to be a sad story to go with such a beautiful and clean panel...

Somebody stopped flying abruptly, then the plane sat for eight years...?

Best regards,

-a-

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Previous Owner is a General in the military and has been deployed a lot and lives on the other coast now....never moved his plane with him after/between deployments.  Sad that it didn't get used, but that happens I'm sure with planes, boats, rvs, etc.

I have 120Hrs PPL - I don't have any complex training yet....I'm planning on doing Mooney Transition training with a well qualified Mooney Instructor, and get 25 hours dual time accomplishing that as well as the complex endorsement, and logging IFR training eventually.

Still flying Cessna 172N for now site-seeing, taking kids up, taking wife on a trip soon, etc.

I'm still learning the dad thing too...I have 5 kids but they are all still pretty young.

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Before starting remove the top plugs and crank until you see oil pressure. Probably doesn't help with the cam and lifters but I don't know of anything that does. It should pre lube the rod and main bearings and also allow oil to get to them sooner after it starts. 

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Congrats on the purchase.  We are all glad to hear about another mooney being rescued.  Hopefully you won't have to do major engine work but it's great to hear you are going into the with open eyes and are willing to do that if needed.  Any pics of the exterior you can share?

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