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Speed on final J model


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I have been using 70kts ias for a speed on final(full flaps,gear down) for 40 years and it works great for landing in most instances.I read an article recently that an instructor not only recommends, but teaches 80 kts on final. I told him that I felt this is 10kts too fast  and his reply was that 70 kts gives a high sink rate and gives little options close to the ground. I am not a CFI, but I feel from my experience that 70 is a much better speed than 80. What does the community recommend? Am I incorrect in my practice?

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16 minutes ago, R4dpilot said:

I have been using 70kts ias for a speed on final(full flaps,gear down) for 40 years and it works great for landing in most instances.I read an article recently that an instructor not only recommends, but teaches 80 kts on final. I told him that I felt this is 10kts too fast  and his reply was that 70 kts gives a high sink rate and gives little options close to the ground. I am not a CFI, but I feel from my experience that 70 is a much better speed than 80. What does the community recommend? Am I incorrect in my practice?

Its not the same model, but in the Eagle ive been learning to fly, I found that 70 to 75 knots depending on weight works well. 80 knots in most mooney's will cause you to float at least 500 feet. the plane does't stop flying until you hear the stall horn go off. 80 knots is just more time for the plane to slow down, which on shorter strips is not a good thing. As of now i can get my eagle stopped at the 2000ft marker. My first approach ever, (which was terrible) consisted of me doing 90 over the numbers. I floated nearly all 4000Ft of the runway and consisted of me doing a go around. I have been only flying 52q for 3 weeks so I could be completely wrong, but this is what i've gotten out of it.

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Did you asked him when he wanted you to reduce power to land? 

50’ (traditional obstacle to clear) mark?

over the numbers?

what speed do you fly an instrument approach? 

I aim for 70 over the numbers, I definitely don’t fly that slow entire final.

 

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I use half flaps for landing. For a few reasons. It sets me up better in case of a go around and two it feels much more stable. I use 70 knots over the numbers and touch down just as my stall horn comes on. When I try that speed using full flaps I tend to ballon and float a lot more. I could not imagine what doing 80 knots with full flaps would feel like for me. 

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R4d...

post the article.  Send a reference. There is something amiss with that statement.

A real CFI can explain that power controls the sink rate and attitude controls the speed.  You can do it the other way, but that requires memorizing what works and what doesn’t.

 

You Know landing speed is related to a matrix of variables.

You haven’t clicked off any of the variables that you are using or holding constant... getting good advice on speed is going to be troublesome... but, I already voted your CFI off the island... :)

At one end of the spectrum...

  • Light weight
  • full flaps
  • Short runway
  • no wind
  • tight MP/speed control

 

At the other end of the spectrum...

  • Max gross
  • No flaps
  • wind/gust
  • Long runway
  • loose MP/speed control

 

Rule of thumb...  Going too fast... for each 10mph over, adds another 1000 feet of float...

Second rule of thumb.... going too fast causes people to force the plane onto the runway... which leads to a set of three bounces with porpoising in between.... you won’t need to count all three. The third one announces itself loudly....

Some people go about this mathematically using factors of stall speed...   1.3, 1.2, 1.1....

They use attitude to set those speeds...

The third rule of thumb... Drop one inch of MP for each 100’ of Descent rate you want...  flying level in the pattern at 90kias, taking out 5” of MP, results in about -500fpm Descent rate... nice starting place when you start the descent...

The fourth rule of thumb... you either have a memorized matrix of stall speeds, or an AOAi...

What stall speeds are you using in this case?

 

Then there is a guy that has turned this into a learning experience...  See @donkaye for that...

 

share your article/reference, if you can.

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

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The airspeed indicator on GA aircraft shows you your speeds. At max landing weight, 1.3x the bottom of the arc for your current configuration on final and cross the threshold at 1.2x. I fly 85mph (74kts) on final and cross the fence at 80 (70kts). Those numbers you've been told sound more like Rocket numbers. 

Edited by Antares
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I have flown my J for 25 years and find that the best speed on final depends on the load. When solo, I round out at 65 kts. I add 5 kts. for each additional passenger, so with four on board I begin the round out at 80 kts. 

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5 hours ago, R4dpilot said:

I have been using 70kts ias for a speed on final(full flaps,gear down) for 40 years and it works great for landing in most instances.I read an article recently that an instructor not only recommends, but teaches 80 kts on final. I told him that I felt this is 10kts too fast  and his reply was that 70 kts gives a high sink rate and gives little options close to the ground. I am not a CFI, but I feel from my experience that 70 is a much better speed than 80. What does the community recommend? Am I incorrect in my practice?

Huh.  The POH for my M20J under "normal landings", it suggests airspeed on final be 71 KIAS.  For "maximum performance landings," 65 KIAS.

Under the Performance section, the approach speeds above are listed for gross weights, with speeds up to 6 KIAS less for weight at 2300 lbs.

So if you're flying solo with partial fuel and doing max performance landings, your POH suggested speed on final could be as low as 59 KIAS.

IRL, flying solo with partial fuel, I'm comfortable shooting for 65 KIAS on final.  By the time I'm over the numbers, I'm probably slower but I'm not looking at airspeed by then.  At that speed, if I yank back for the flare I can set off the stall alarm, but a gentle, sedate roundout still leaves me touching down 800-1000' past the aiming point, so there's plenty of energy left.

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23 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I read an article recently that an instructor not only recommends, but teaches 80 kts on final. I told him that I felt this is 10kts too fast  and his reply was that 70 kts gives a high sink rate and gives little options close to the ground

Are you sure this instructor is talking about a J Model Mooney?

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6 hours ago, R4dpilot said:

I have been using 70kts ias for a speed on final(full flaps,gear down) for 40 years and it works great for landing in most instances.I read an article recently that an instructor not only recommends, but teaches 80 kts on final. I told him that I felt this is 10kts too fast  and his reply was that 70 kts gives a high sink rate and gives little options close to the ground. I am not a CFI, but I feel from my experience that 70 is a much better speed than 80. What does the community recommend? Am I incorrect in my practice?

Actually in my J I aim for 80 KIAS on final. I fly downwind at 100 or so. Slow to 65 or so over the threshold, (~60 with full flaps and closer to 70 w/o flaps.) When heavier I add a few knots to these numbers. 

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I have a little time in a J, about 20 hours, and alot of time in the 231.  The K is heavier and speeds are a little faster, not much, but about 5 knots.  I did notice that the J liked to float.  But in my opinion, final approach and landing speed in the J and K are a function of where you live and what weather conditions you face.  In gusty crosswind conditions you need a little more speed to get the necessary rudder authority.  In addition, there is almost always a headwind component, which slows the ground speed (not the airspeed).  I have made an awful lot of landings at 85 kts. in the 231.  I like to land it at 75, or even at 70, but most of the time in the midwest that just won’t work.  It can be a major mistake to come in on short final at slow speeds like that and then get hit by gusts right above the runway that exceed your elevator authority, or even get hit with a tailwind just above the ground. I have landed in sunny day windy conditions on rural airstrips with winds gusting in the 20s and varying in direction by 120 degrees. So I agree with both of you.  I would prefer to land the J at 70, better control over descent rate and not so much float, and if the winds are light or stable I would do it that way, but alot of the time where I live I would use a higher landing speed.  

Edited by jlunseth
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You guys may be speaking two different languages here.  My ASI has both mph and knots, and on normal final at average loading I fly 70 knots which is about 80 mph.  At light loading and solo I have been down close to 60-62 knots which is about 70mph and can be off the runway at the 1,000 foot exit at my home drome.  Older Mooney may have mph only and that may be what the CFI was talking about.

I agree 80kts is too fast.

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12 hours ago, carusoam said:

R4d...

post the article.  Send a reference. There is something amiss with that statement.

A real CFI can explain that power controls the sink rate and attitude controls the speed.  You can do it the other way, but that requires memorizing what works and what doesn’t.

 

You Know landing speed is related to a matrix of variables.

You haven’t clicked off any of the variables that you are using or holding constant... getting good advice on speed is going to be troublesome... but, I already voted your CFI off the island... :)

At one end of the spectrum...

  • Light weight
  • full flaps
  • Short runway
  • no wind
  • tight MP/speed control

 

At the other end of the spectrum...

  • Max gross
  • No flaps
  • wind/gust
  • Long runway
  • loose MP/speed control

 

Rule of thumb...  Going too fast... for each 10mph over, adds another 1000 feet of float...

Second rule of thumb.... going too fast causes people to force the plane onto the runway... which leads to a set of three bounces with porpoising in between.... you won’t need to count all three. The third one announces itself loudly....

Some people go about this mathematically using factors of stall speed...   1.3, 1.2, 1.1....

They use attitude to set those speeds...

The third rule of thumb... Drop one inch of MP for each 100’ of Descent rate you want...  flying level in the pattern at 90kias, taking out 5” of MP, results in about -500fpm Descent rate... nice starting place when you start the descent...

The fourth rule of thumb... you either have a memorized matrix of stall speeds, or an AOAi...

What stall speeds are you using in this case?

 

Then there is a guy that has turned this into a learning experience...  See @donkaye for that...

 

share your article/reference, if you can.

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

I certainly didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest. You can find the article the mooneyflyer.com/issues/2018-MayTMF.pdf. go to article titled Take your time

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I interpreted the article to read approach at 80kts and I'll agree with that because it does feel a bit more stable, but not in the flare.  My SOP is base to final turn about 85kts and straighten up about 80kts and as I add more flaps and some power reduction I'm at my target speed over the fence depending on weight.  Perhaps it could have been worded a bit different and some more detail in the article but, I do get what he was saying about the mph vs kts in the long and short body.

The concept of taking your time and let the wing quit flying is good advice.

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Yes, I saw that:

Article is saying "whether your ASI in in knots or mph, it's a good bet that your best speed ins 80 on final, at least until you get over fence"

 

Definitely, oversimplification in my book but good rule of thumb for my F model (ASI in mph and 80 mph = 70kt ) and long body that ASI is in kt. You're doing it successfully for 40 years so I wouldn't change that! :D

 

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19 hours ago, R4dpilot said:

I have been using 70kts ias for a speed on final(full flaps,gear down) for 40 years

I generally use 80mph (that’s outer ring of my ASI) down short final. Slightly more if I’m heavy. This is suspiciously close to 70kts.  (Super short/heavy/long/hot adjustments are made but “generally”-80 mph)

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I fly instrument approaches at 100 kias. I like to fly a little faster on approach then slow down closer to the runway.  Cross the fence at 70 kias and she comes in nice and soft.

if it’s gusty or if there’s a big crosswind, I’ll land with intermediate flaps and target crossing the fence at 80 kias and run her onto the runway. With intermediate flaps she doesn’t seem to float as much.  I assume it’s related to how the flap angle affects the airplane in ground effect.  This profile assumes I have a long runway to work with which is typical of my destinations. I’m based at a 7000 ft runway.

It’s shocking how well the Mooney wing likes to fly. Controls start feeling mushy compared to where we’re used to flying, but the plane flies well slowly.

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I generally roll wings level on final at 85 mph, slowing to 70-75 mph based on weight by the numbers.

But on my flight revjew last week, i did a rather flat no-flap landing at my 3150' home field at 100 mph, with only minor braking. Winds were very light.

Just know that for every knot of extra speed, you will float an extra 100'. And never, never push the yoke forward to force the plane onto the runway!

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