VoIP ATC Comunications

[Piloto]

After ADS-B now comes ATC VoIP communications. So be prepared to buy a new VoIP COM radio. Unlike traditional current AM format which is worldwide compatible and reliable, VoIP only enhances the audio quality. This is kind of useless since the airborne audio quality is limited by the mic on your headset. And current long range communications on HF/SSB have proven to be reliable. If there is going to be a VHF COM improvement I would go for narrowband FM VHF as used on marine VHF radios. FM is immune to noise and requires less power than AM radios.

José

Edited April 30, 2018 by Piloto

[Steve W]

Personally I just want them to launch the app that's being discussed to get full clearances without playing the telephone game.

[David Medders]

This is a ground facilities upgrade, not a new cockpit technology.

David

 

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, David Medders said:

This is a ground facilities upgrade, not a new cockpit technology.

David

 

I do look forward to when digital comm becomes more widely used.   It'll open up a lot of additional capabilities and improve comm reliability.

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/where_we_are_now/nextgen_update/progress_and_plans/data_comm/

[Yetti]

That's going to be a long Cat 6 cable to reach all those planes

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

That's going to be a long Cat 6 cable to reach all those planes

WiFi. 

 

[ArtVandelay]

Forget the voice, they should just have text capability:

instead of “get read to copy “  long reroutes, they send you a text, then you can transfer it directly to your GPS!

would allow drones (real ones, not the toys) to be given commands by ATC.

 

[Mooneymite]

1 hour ago, teejayevans said:

Forget the voice, they should just have text capability:

instead of “get read to copy “  long reroutes, they send you a text, then you can transfer it directly to your GPS!

We already have it.

This is part of FANS.  CPDLC (controller pilot datalink).  All digital communications, clearance are issued and updated digitally.  The enhanced version interfaces directly with the FMS...all the pilot has to do is check it over and acknowlege.

When you hear how much it all costs, you might think the telephone game is very cost effective.  

[Yetti]

1 hour ago, Mooneymite said:

We already have it.

This is part of FANS.  CPDLC (controller pilot datalink).  All digital communications, clearance are issued and updated digitally.  The enhanced version interfaces directly with the FMS...all the pilot has to do is check it over and acknowlege.

When you hear how much it all costs, you might think the telephone game is very cost effective.  

It really doesn't have to cost that much.  Sending the route over the ADSB network would just be a couple of interfaces.  We do it everyday in the controls world at a sub-second pace.

[Mooneymite]

58 minutes ago, Yetti said:

It really doesn't have to cost that much.

Once the FAA gets involved, it will be both complicated and costly.  

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, Yetti said:

It really doesn't have to cost that much.  Sending the route over the ADSB network would just be a couple of interfaces.  We do it everyday in the controls world at a sub-second pace.

I'm sure it'll happen somehow and I'm looking forward to it, but the ADS-B network probably won't have enough bandwidth to handle that, especially if/when it expands services like expected.

[Marauder]

I would be happy if they can transmit the actual ATIS for an airport instead of just its METAR. The savings in radio talk time would be worth it. 

[Piloto]

There still some advantages of voice vs text. By voice you can convey your message quickly, (specially in turbulence) vs using a keyboard and your hands.

In the early days of radio all messages were text by telegraphy. Later on with the improvement of vacuum tubes radios were able to convey voice. But with internet we are back to text. 

José

[Mooneymite]

16 hours ago, Marauder said:

I would be happy if they can transmit the actual ATIS for an airport instead of just its METAR. The savings in radio talk time would be worth it. 

"They" do transmit digital ATIS at larger airports.  (D-ATIS).  All you need is the equipment (and subscription) to receive it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACARS

[BDPetersen]

Audio quality in two way radio has not changed or improved since , well, forever. Why can’t it sound like my car radio and what did happen to 8 track?

[ArtVandelay]

Why can’t we get reliable cell phone service above 6000’?

Then ATC can text me, of course if driving while texting is bad...?

[EricJ]

3 hours ago, BDPetersen said:

Audio quality in two way radio has not changed or improved since , well, forever. Why can’t it sound like my car radio and what did happen to 8 track?

Everything has tradeoffs, and legacy compatibility is always a big one.    That said, one of the redeeming qualities of analog AM voice radio is that there's a better chance of receiving at least one of the transmissions when two different radios are transmitting at the same time.   Basically, analog AM is more tolerant of multiple access collisions than other modulation types, and that has significant benefit in this particular application.   FM has better immunity to some common types of noise and has some other benefits, but when transmissions collide it is less likely you'll get either one.

The sound quality in the radios has also suffered from cost pressure, so that the engineering time and parts that would otherwise provide better sound just aren't there in some cases.   I had two KX170Bs in my airplane when I got it, and replaced one with a TKM170C.   I swapped both of the KX170Bs in and out to see which one was "better", and the sound quality on either was significantly better than the three-decades-newer TKM, when they worked. 

[Yetti]

5 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

"They" do transmit digital ATIS at larger airports.  (D-ATIS).  All you need is the equipment (and subscription) to receive it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACARS

Hmmm that seems hackable...  Maybe just add one more SDR and a Raspberry PI to decode....   Another project on the list.

[Yetti]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOAA_Observing_System_Architecture

 

[EricJ]

9 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Hmmm that seems hackable...  Maybe just add one more SDR and a Raspberry PI to decode....   Another project on the list.

Totally hackable.

https://www.rtl-sdr.com/rtl-sdr-radio-scanner-tutorial-receiving-airplane-data-with-acars/

Twenty-five-+ years ago I designed the ACARS modem (and a bunch of other stuff) for the Boeing 777 when I worked for Honeywell.   Even then it was a soft demodulator, and ran on an Analog Devices ADSP-21xx (I think it was a 2101, iirc).   I had to get an exception so that the code could be written in assembly instead of Ada, as there were no Ada compilers for DSPs at the time (and it would have been dumb to do it, anyway).   Pretty much all of the cheap platforms these days, like the RPi, have tons more computing horsepower, so it's readily accessible.

 

[Bryan]

At my local FAAST chapter last night, was "Dinner with ATC - on open question and answer session"

Someone posed the question to our local ATC group:  "What (if anything) has ADS-B done for you guys?  Do you see more information?"

Representing our local ATC, was Little Rock Approach Control and Tower associates.  They said, for Approach Control and Tower - they can tell (or not) if we have it and can "validate" it but it really does not help them that much.  They have really good Radar coverage in the local (terminal) area but they have talked with several of the local Centers (Memphis Center) and it does help them much better see targets is more error-prone (rural areas) around the state.  Or targets they could not normally see at lower altitudes.

I asked them about better (voice/data) communications like this topic but did not have any comment on that - or anything useful to share.  Digital ATIS for the GA crowd would be nice.  They recently have a lot of construction at KLIT and our ATIS message is very long.

[ArtVandelay]

2 hours ago, Bryan said:

I asked them about better (voice/data) communications like this topic but did not have any comment on that - or anything useful to share.  Digital ATIS for the GA crowd would be nice.  They recently have a lot of construction at KLIT and our ATIS message is very long.

I’ve heard KAPA has a routinely long ATIS, they have special procedures included.

[jaylw314]

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 5:45 AM, Yetti said:

It really doesn't have to cost that much.  Sending the route over the ADSB network would just be a couple of interfaces.  We do it everyday in the controls world at a sub-second pace.

I don't think ADS-B has enough bandwidth, and then there would be the issue of readback and security, since you wouldn't be able to send a digital acknowledgement.

[jaylw314]

8 hours ago, BDPetersen said:

Audio quality in two way radio has not changed or improved since , well, forever. Why can’t it sound like my car radio and what did happen to 8 track?

Careful, you're dating yourself!

[kris_adams]

4 hours ago, EricJ said:

 instead of Ada, as there were no Ada compilers for DSPs.

Ada...now that’s a blast from the past. At ERAU in the early 90s we did all sorts of programming in Ada. Of course never once used it after I graduated.