Do you brief who is PIC?

[Jim Peace]

I always pawn off the PIC title from me as much as possible.  I fly for a living and don't want to be grounded for something stupid.  So when I ride in a plane with someone else I make it clear they are PIC and I am along for a ride.

[RobertGary1]

7 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

I always pawn off the PIC title from me as much as possible.  I fly for a living and don't want to be grounded for something stupid.  So when I ride in a plane with someone else I make it clear they are PIC and I am along for a ride.

From a practical perspective the PIC discussion makes sense, who makes the decisions. However, from a post accident perspective I've not seen anything to suggest that the FAA investigators really consider who decided to be PIC. From reading thousands of accident reports I've never seen a mention of a PIC discussion. They seem to focus on who was "flying" unless it was an instructional flight; in which case its just always the CFI's fault. In fact the hangar talk is that the FAA usually goes after whoever has the highest rating; but I'm not sure I could provide any stats to prove that either.

-Robert

[Mooneymite]

13 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

I always pawn off the PIC title from me as much as possible.  I fly for a living and don't want to be grounded for something stupid.  So when I ride in a plane with someone else I make it clear they are PIC and I am along for a ride.

However, in some cases, the FAA doesn't care who "says" he's PIC, the FAA goes after the higher rated pilot.

You want confusion?

Watch the finger pointing when aluminum is bent while a company line-check airman is sitting on the jumpseat.

Real entertaining.  

[Jim Peace]

1 hour ago, Mooneymite said:

However, in some cases, the FAA doesn't care who "says" he's PIC, the FAA goes after the higher rated pilot.

I don't think thats true,  I am a part 121 FO,  there are many times when I am the higher flight time and higher rated pilot in my job, I take the same check ride as the captain and have to get 6 month medicals due to three man crew ops etc..  are you saying they will come after me first if I have 5000 more hours than the captain?  I hope not....the person who signs for the plane is the boss.

Which gives me the thought that if you are in your Mooney and on an IFR flight plan then the name listed as PIC is the PIC period end of story.  Maybe we need something like that for VFR ops. A legal document of who is going to be writing the checks and doing the carpet dance in front of the FAA when the crap hits the fan.

I am also a current but non practicing CFI as well so when I am in a part 91 situation I make it clear its not instruction and I am along for the ride. CFI hat off.....

[Mooneymite]

14 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

...  are you saying they will come after me first if I have 5000 more hours than the captain?...

Actually, I said, "...in some cases."

And 50,000 more hours wouldn't make you "higher rated".  Obviously Mooney time would.  

 Probably no question who holds the bag in the well structured 121 world.

However, the FAA cam be very fickle in whom it chooses to go after...or not.

[kris_adams]

3 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

I always pawn off the PIC title from me as much as possible.  I fly for a living and don't want to be grounded for something stupid.  So when I ride in a plane with someone else I make it clear they are PIC and I am along for a ride.

Me too Jim!  Especially with a friend that has a recent PPL!

 

[kris_adams]

3 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

However, in some cases, the FAA doesn't care who "says" he's PIC, the FAA goes after the higher rated pilot.

Based on certificates or ratings or both? Interesting stuff for sure

[Mooneymite]

3 minutes ago, Kris_Adams said:

Based on certificates or ratings or both? Interesting stuff for sure

Where it gets muddy is when you have a highly rated pilot who is technically a passenger in the right seat who "allows" the PIC to do something stupid.

The FAA tends to see the big picture and discounts the "I was just riding along" defence when the higher rated pilot may have been active in poor decision making.

The right seat may be a poor hiding place.

[midlifeflyer]

5 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Maybe that's the confusion, vs the FAA Council  interpretation the FAA released in 2007 which says the opposite.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2007/olshock-panam2 - (2007) legal interpretation.pdf

-Robert

That's why I mentioned I was surprised. It's a reversal of the earlier comment.

[midlifeflyer]

4 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

However, in some cases, the FAA doesn't care who "says" he's PIC, the FAA goes after the higher rated pilot.

You want confusion?

Watch the finger pointing when aluminum is bent while a company line-check airman is sitting on the jumpseat.

Real entertaining.  

That's a myth.

[Andy95W]

6 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Where it gets muddy is when you have a highly rated pilot who is technically a passenger in the right seat who "allows" the PIC to do something stupid.

The FAA tends to see the big picture and discounts the "I was just riding along" defence when the higher rated pilot may have been active in poor decision making.

The right seat may be a poor hiding place.

/\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\

The way Gus describes it is exactly the way I was taught and have seen the system work. I have a CFI friend who was "just along for the ride" who was violated by the FAA for something the PIC did.

(Except Part 121.  The crew sinks or swims as a crew, but the Captain has the final responsibility whether he's flying with Jim Peace or a fledgling FO.)

[Jim Peace]

That does it, I am going to just sit in the back seat, off intercom and watch "snakes on a plane" on my iPad.....

[midlifeflyer]

8 hours ago, Andy95W said:

/\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\

The way Gus describes it is exactly the way I was taught and have seen the system work. I have a CFI friend who was "just along for the ride" who was violated by the FAA for something the PIC did.

(Except Part 121.  The crew sinks or swims as a crew, but the Captain has the final responsibility whether he's flying with Jim Peace or a fledgling FO.)

All the verifiable ones I've seen (or been involved with) involve a pilot, whether PIC or not, doing something which leads to the violation. 

The infamous "back seat CFI" myth, for example, may have its origin with an accident in which a CFI passenger "just along for the ride" convinced an inexperienced PIC it was ok to fly with a faulty attitude indicator in marginal VFR conditions. The PIC deferred to his more experienced passenger, with the unfortunate but completely predictable result.

That's not to say the FAA hasn't gone after pilots for something pretty marginal. There's the one where the passenger took control to try to try to avoid a violation and ended up being violated.  

"The FAA violates the highest certificate" as a theory may have the advantage of being simple, but reality is far more nuanced. If I am a pilot on board a light aircraft in a position to do something, I expect that during an investigation, the FAA will at least look at my conduct, whether I am flying with a student pilot as an instructor or with an ATP as a mere passenger in an aircraft I have no experience in.

[Mooneymite]

49 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

That's not to say the FAA hasn't gone after pilots for something pretty marginal. There's the one where the passenger took control to try to try to avoid a violation and ended up being violated.  

The post you labled as "myth", clearly stated "in some cases". 

Anyone who says he knows what the FAA is going to pursue in any given incident should write a book.

[midlifeflyer]

8 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

The post you labled as "myth", clearly stated "in some cases". 

Anyone who says he knows what the FAA is going to pursue in any given incident should write a book.

...which is a very good reason no one has written that book. The FAA's decision on who (singular and plural) to go after is not susceptible of easy answers. It depends on what happened and  as there doing what. 

I think that's all I said.

Edited May 3, 2018 by midlifeflyer

[Hank]

4 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

...which is a very good reason no one has written that book. The FAA's decision on who (singular and plural) to go after is not susceptible of easy answers. It depends on what happened and  as there doing what. 

I think that's all I said.

What? You don't like novels??

[Greg252AY]

On 5/2/2018 at 12:06 PM, Jim Peace said:

I always pawn off the PIC title from me as much as possible.  I fly for a living and don't want to be grounded for something stupid.  So when I ride in a plane with someone else I make it clear they are PIC and I am along for a ride.

I Agree, I fly for a living as well and my wife has her private. When we fly together (often) she is ALWAYS pic. I can leave my medical at home or drink a beer and legally could not be PIC even though I have a ATP, CFII, ect. Its not hard to bust a reg on airspace or a notam i didnt read close enough and risk my paycheck. 

[RobertGary1]

On 5/6/2018 at 9:21 AM, Greg252AY said:

I Agree, I fly for a living as well and my wife has her private. When we fly together (often) she is ALWAYS pic. I can leave my medical at home or drink a beer and legally could not be PIC even though I have a ATP, CFII, ect. Its not hard to bust a reg on airspace or a notam i didnt read close enough and risk my paycheck. 

As long as they dont find you were acting as a flight instructor. Then pic means little. 

-Robert

[Greg252AY]

How could FAA they possibly find me PIC if i am unable to be fly because of either drinking a beer or not having my glasses on ect. . Either case would 100% of the time keep me from being PIC. I always drink a beer before my wife flies us somewhere. slam dunk, no way for me to be PIC. 

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, Greg252AY said:

How could FAA they possibly find me PIC if i am unable to be fly because of either drinking a beer or not having my glasses on ect. . Either case would 100% of the time keep me from being PIC. I always drink a beer before my wife flies us somewhere. slam dunk, no way for me to be PIC. 

So long as you don't do anything to give the impression you were giving instruction you should be fine.

-Robert