M20J RAJAY Turbo STC

[tomgo2]

Great news to you M20J owners that are interested in or maintaining a RAJAY turbocharged aircraft.  The FAA is in the process of reissuing STC SA3555WE back to RAJAY Turbo Products. This means we'll be able to reproduce PMA parts and entertain new kit production if there is enough demand. Send an email to sales@rajay.aero or signup for the newsletter at www.rajay.aero if you are interested in a kit.

[carusoam]

Way to go Tomgo! 

Would this be the same STC that was in the hands of that Florida corporation that was ‘lost’ after the hurricane..?

See if you can add some more detail... like which existing Mooneys could get a new turbo installation...

Best regards,

-a-

[MIm20c]

Tom it was great talking with you at Sun and Fun. Thanks for all the hard work. 

Is the J system a manual wastegate or automatic system?

[ArtVandelay]

Is there a summary of what is required for installation?  Cowl mods? Ram air removal?  Etc...

Does this increase max gross weight (especially if installed on older Js with 2740 limit)?

[tomgo2]

Hi everyone and thank you for the questions!  I'm still working on understanding all the details.  I found an old brochure in my paperwork and posted the performance numbers on the site to answer some of the more straight forward performance questions (https://rajay.aero/pages/rajay-performance).

This STC has been in Kelly Aerospace's possession since 1995 and lost during the ownership changes along the way.  Kelly Aerospace has been kind enough to sign it over RAJAY as the rightful owners! Kelly Aerospace was very generous in their support.

There isn't much modification required to the cowling. I attached a screen shot of the cowling drawing for you to get an idea.

I don't believe this increases gross weight any. Remember; this is a turbo-normalized system so the engine is not operating beyond the original limitations. It is only performing at Sea Level at the higher altitudes while respecting the same Manifold Pressure limitations as originally designed.

Yes - this is still with a manual waste gate setup. 

Please be patient while we continue to push forward and establish our company priorities.  Please drop us an email to help us understand the demand in the fleet.  I imagine it will take several months to determine the price and availability.

Respectfully,

Tom

 

[1964-M20E]

Tom

 

This is great to hear.  I hope that you can get the parts cost reasonable.  While at $30, $40 $50k for an install one would really need it or want it to install on a $40k to $100k plane.  Now if parts and STC can be had for $10k to $15k you might be able to generate significant interest.  I'm not sure what buying the turbo and waste gate outright from Ray Jay would cost but as you said Kelly signed the STC over to you.  The STC itself should be minimal cost to the end user and then just the cost of components and install.  The more economical you can make it the more you can sell and the more replacement parts in the future.

Good luck and I'd be interested in doing this.

[carusoam]

Hmmmm...  We have a really good Mooney cowling guy around here... @Sabremech

A turbo with improved airflow/cooling would be nice if it all fits...

 

Best regards,

-a-

[FlyingDude]

Hi all,

Any updates?...

[LANCECASPER]

6 hours ago, FlyingDude said:

Hi all,

Any updates?...

If you want a response from Tom, either quote him or ping @tomgo2

[1980Mooney]

7 hours ago, FlyingDude said:

Hi all,

Any updates?...

This thread started regarding the J model application.  The FAA STC Database shows that TALCO Aviation dba as RAJAY Turbo Products now owns SA3555WE for the M20J only application. The STC Database shows that SA1156WE for Lycoming IO-360-A1A or O-360-A1D engine applications (A,B,C,D and G applications only) is still owned by Mod Works Inc.  There is no application for E model listed in the current STC's.  But as @LANCECASPER says - email or call Rajay.

 

[M20F-1968]

Could you get that same thing to happen with the M20 Turbos system as it too is essentially an abandoned STC?

John Breda

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

This thread started regarding the J model application.  The FAA STC Database shows that TALCO Aviation dba as RAJAY Turbo Products now owns SA3555WE for the M20J only application. The STC Database shows that SA1156WE for Lycoming IO-360-A1A or O-360-A1D engine applications (A,B,C,D and G applications only) is still owned by Mod Works Inc.  There is no application for E model listed in the current STC's.  But as @LANCECASPER says - email or call Rajay.

 

The first post in the thread kinda indicates this, but just to clarify for anyone coming in part way through the thread, @tomgo2 is TALCO dba RAJAY Turbo Products

[1980Mooney]

2 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

Could you get that same thing to happen with the M20 Turbos system as it too is essentially an abandoned STC?

John Breda

I’m not sure that I follow your logic. Kelly owned but had lost STC SA3555WE. When they found it 23 years later, realizing that they had no use for it, they assigned it to Rajay.   STC SA1156WE remains stranded with Mod Works.  I think Rajay can sell replacement parts/turbos to owners that possess a valid STC installation by defunct Mod Works. But Rajay cannot sell new installations on A,B,C,D or G Mooneys. However they can for a J since they (Rajay) own the STC. 

The discussion of stranded STCs at Mod Works and Mod Squad is the subject of many threads. 

[MikeOH]

4 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

This thread started regarding the J model application.  The FAA STC Database shows that TALCO Aviation dba as RAJAY Turbo Products now owns SA3555WE for the M20J only application. The STC Database shows that SA1156WE for Lycoming IO-360-A1A or O-360-A1D engine applications (A,B,C,D and G applications only) is still owned by Mod Works Inc.  There is no application for E model listed in the current STC's.  But as @LANCECASPER says - email or call Rajay.

 

@1980Mooney

So, that covers everything except the F model, which I am, coincidentally, most interested in 

[Ragsf15e]

4 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

@1980Mooney

So, that covers everything except the F model, which I am, coincidentally, most interested in 

Yeah apparently that one is held by mod works and is never coming back to life…

[MikeOH]

2 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Yeah apparently that one is held by mod works and is never coming back to life…

Bummer.

Thanks for the answer!

[philiplane]

The point of who owns the STC is moot, since there are no new systems available.

[MikeOH]

22 minutes ago, philiplane said:

The point of who owns the STC is moot, since there are no new systems available.

Well, I thought the point was that the current STC owner isn't doing anything with it; a new owner could resurrect the product.  Or, is there some reason that you know of which would prevent that given the desire?

[philiplane]

The way this works, the current STC holder can sit on it forever. They would have to sell the intellectual property to a new owner, and then the new owner has to go through the production certification process with the FAA to build parts again.  

I doubt we will see a resurrection of the RAJAY systems for new sales. Price seems to be the problem. For comparison, RAJAY used to install new turbos on Piper Apaches in Long Beach CA in 1962 for $3985, on the roughly $41,000 twin. That installed price is equal to $42K today, on a twin engine airplane. Ten percent of the new airplane's value for that upgrade.

I don't see any way that RAJAY would be able to match that value proposition today, which means no one will buy it. For direct comparison, Tornado Alley gets $59K for a twin turbo installation on a Cirrus, and that includes dual intercoolers, a new starter adapter with oil scavenge pump, and the automatic wastegate controller system. And engine baffle mods. It's a very complete, very sophisticated system, The Rajay systems have manual controls and no intercoolers, which limits the usefulness of the system due to very high induction temperatures as altitude increases. As much as 190 degrees at 85 percent power, which raises CHT's and lowers power output. 

If RAJAY could supply an install kit for $25k for a single, they might have a market. If they added an intercooler, that would be a huge benefit.

[EricJ]

As often as this comes up, if somebody pursued getting the ModWorks STCs declared abandoned by the FAA then people could request the approved data for an installation.   There is a process for this, as much interest as there seems to be I'd have thought somebody would give it a shot.

[M20F-1968]

On 10/19/2023 at 1:54 PM, 1980Mooney said:

I’m not sure that I follow your logic. Kelly owned but had lost STC SA3555WE. When they found it 23 years later, realizing that they had no use for it, they assigned it to Rajay.   STC SA1156WE remains stranded with Mod Works.  I think Rajay can sell replacement parts/turbos to owners that possess a valid STC installation by defunct Mod Works. But Rajay cannot sell new installations on A,B,C,D or G Mooneys. However they can for a J since they (Rajay) own the STC. 

The discussion of stranded STCs at Mod Works and Mod Squad is the subject of many threads. 

I am addressing the STC's held by M20Turbos.  The developer of the STC is deceased, his wife did not want it.  It is not being used and the company is no longer an entity.

John Breda

 

[KSMooniac]

15 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

I am addressing the STC's held by M20Turbos.  The developer of the STC is deceased, his wife did not want it.  It is not being used and the company is no longer an entity.

John Breda

 

I tried to buy this from the widow, reached an agreement, but she changed her mind at the last minute and walked away.  She had been operating the business for several years after her husband passed.  My understanding is that she "gave it" to their long time mechanic in PA (before the move to FL), but he ended up going to the fed pen for fraud related to aircraft maintenance.  I just searched the FAA STC site and it appears both the engine and airframe STC's are still showing CURRENT and registered to M20 Turbos Inc in FL, so I *presume* no official transfer was actually executed in the eyes of the FAA.

I can say that the widow did not have any of the substantiating data aside from paper copies of the drawings.  No flight test reports, structural analysis, vibration analysis, etc. that would be used to support the STC's.  Conveniently, the Atlanta ACO lost their copies of all of that data that was used to certify the STC, so the value of the "business" is greatly diminshed if someone were to try to resurrect it. 

I wanted it as a passion project for my own professional interest that conveniently intersected with my M20J ownership/passion, but never expected to make much, if any, money from the endeavor.  The market is extremely small for owners willing to buy such a kit today, IMO.  10 years ago the cost of the off-the-shelf components alone was more than $20k, and that did not include the numerous fabricated brackets, hardware, exhaust, etc. that would be required, plus the cost of any business overhead, liability insurance, etc.  After all of the inflation we've had in the last few years, I expect the price of those components are likely closer to $30k or 35k now, and I can't think of anyone that would chose to buy a $40, or $45k kit today and put it on a J.  Even worse for the E/F installation as those required a full J cowl transplant!