Jump to content

New PPL and just bought a Mooney M20F - I have a few questions!


sdflysurf

Recommended Posts

I started flying my 67F after I soloed a 172 at about 10 hours total time.  I remember feeling real tense the first hour because the feel was so much heavier on the controls and it seemed to be less forgiving..  after about 4 hours it all felt normal and I finished out my ppl.  I’m not sure how long it will take you to feel normal because you have a bit of primacy  to undo from flying 150 and 172.   Be sure not to forget your gear.   I imagine if anything gets you, it will be that, as you’re used to not having to think about that.   You’ll have to seriously relearn your routine and undo your previous thought process on arrivals.

Edited by Browncbr1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Got my 67F with 100 hrs PPL.  Probably around hour 200 where I didn’t feel like an idiot ALL the time, just sometimes. Somewhere between 300 - 400 where I felt like wind gusting to 35? Gonna suck but I can land it.  Hour 465 and I just filed IFR for the first time by myself today... back to feeling like an idiot ALL the time. 

  • Like 4
  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, SantosDumont said:

Got my 67F with 100 hrs PPL.  Probably around hour 200 where I didn’t feel like an idiot ALL the time, just sometimes. Somewhere between 300 - 400 where I felt like wind gusting to 35? Gonna suck but I can land it.  Hour 465 and I just filed IFR for the first time by myself today... back to feeling like an idiot ALL the time. 

One of the harder jobs I found immediately after getting my Inst. rating was filing for a flight. I was taught how to fly on instruments, and how to fly an approach, etc., but somebody forgot to teach me how to choose a route or what departure and arrival to file. 

Hang in there. It gets better. And a side benefit is that under a flight plan, it is actually easier. Just do what ATC says.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I bought my '66 E in 2014 - also as a low-hour pilot - I had all these grand plans too. I agree with other suggestions to just fly the plane to get familiar and comfortable in it. Figure on 10 hours for your complex, and do a ton of patterns and pattern entries at speed and altitude. Slowing down isn't a big deal as long as you plan for it (2 minutes for every 500 feet with extra time to slow to gear down speed after reaching pattern altitude). Approaching an airport high and fast isn't fun. Don't force the plane on the runway - practice go-arounds and don't hesitate to do them.

Two priorities I'd suggest are a good engine monitor (I got an EI CGR-30P), and ADSB-out. Since your transponder is ancient (like mine was), the Garmin GTX335 is a good choice. Then run Pilot of Foreflight on your iPad Mini with a portable ADSB-in unit and you'll be set. Have fun and fly safe!...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, SantosDumont said:

Got my 67F with 100 hrs PPL.  Probably around hour 200 where I didn’t feel like an idiot ALL the time, just sometimes. Somewhere between 300 - 400 where I felt like wind gusting to 35? Gonna suck but I can land it.  Hour 465 and I just filed IFR for the first time by myself today... back to feeling like an idiot ALL the time. 

I tried to make a science out of figuring out the proper route to file. What I learned is that there are a lot of factors that come into play which dictate the route you will get (Letters of Agreement between facilities, hour of day, weather, ATC delays and who knows what else). Even on flights I filed before I learned that I may not get them a second time. I remember a couple of years ago I filed to a destination in western NY. The clearance I received was the typical go to MXE, then Victor airways northwest towards my destination. A couple of weeks later I filed the same route that I received earlier and was given a route that took me to MXE, then northeast before turning me northwest.

When I was airborne I called Philly up and they asked me why I was flying northeast and if I was on an IFR training flight! I said “no” and then received a direct clearance to a VOR about halfway to my destination. A buddy of mine typically will file a direct route picking a couple of VORs or waypoints along the route. His rationale can’t be argued with. “What difference does it make, they will give me what they want and then at some point change it again”. :)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I used to use the Route Planner in ForeFlight. But have since given up and just file DIRECT every time. You're gonna get what they give you anyway. I often get back the actual route via email and one click loads it into ForeFlight, then another click transfers it to my IFD540 and we're ready to fly.

IMHO /Golf has largely eliminated the need for the IFR low charts. Add to that that the IFD540 always knows the relevant fixes, waypoints, airways, etc from wherever I happen to be, and the chart is just redundant.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I always file Direct/G, and am always cleared for that. But if my course passes near ATL, I always get an amendment to either SINCA or HEFIN, which is equivalent to "remain clear of the Bravo" except they are 15-20nm outside the ring instead of the mile or two I fly when VFR. Just zoom in to 15nm scale and keep my wingtip on the green line . . . . @ssh0le Bravo controllers!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It looks like the best route for a quick update/fix is to pick up a PS Engineering Audio Panel and a Lynx 9000 and then use my IPAD with foreflight for now.  Still early stages, not going to get sucked into a full panel modification just yet! :)

Edited by sdflysurf
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

I used to use the Route Planner in ForeFlight. But have since given up and just file DIRECT every time. You're gonna get what they give you anyway. I often get back the actual route via email and one click loads it into ForeFlight, then another click transfers it to my IFD540 and we're ready to fly.

IMHO /Golf has largely eliminated the need for the IFR low charts. Add to that that the IFD540 always knows the relevant fixes, waypoints, airways, etc from wherever I happen to be, and the chart is just redundant.

You people and your flat prairies!  :P With mountains around, airways are important for giving you the most altitude options if you can't fly in the flight levels or through mountains.  I've pre-planned a whole battery of IFR airway routes for a number different situations.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

SDFlySurf,

Congrats on the license and the plane.

When I bought my M20J in December 2017, I had 270 hours on a 30-year old license, 100 of which was recent in a Cessna 172. I had two hours in a Mooney, including a demo flight with a guy on this forum and a 1.5 hour orientation lesson in a J Model operated by Pinnacle Aviation at KCRQ. The broker I bought the plane through in Texas set me up with a really great guy who had done transition training for the Mooney factory. 

So I went to San Antonio in December with three days blocked out for the training (cost was $350/day for the instructor). I had read all the manuals, etc., in advance. We did an hour or two of ground work on Day 1 then flew for 4.2 hours, 11 landings and a good barbecue lunch in Llano. At the end of that first day, a Wednesday, the instructor said, "Well, we should be done by noon tomorrow, so you can get up to Dallas ahead of the weather." (I was going to meet my wife at my in-laws for Christmas in the Dallas area, and there was a cold front headed south that was going to hit on Friday.)

On Thursday, we flew for 2.9 hours and 11 landings. We landed back at Kestrel by lunch, and Bob says, "Everything looks good. How do you feel?" I felt fine. But I thought there surely must be some kind of rule against Brent jumping into a Mooney and flying off by himself to wherever he felt like going. Nope. Filed a flight plan, got in the plane without asking anyone for permission, and flew to Grand Prairie. Go figure. 

Anyway, to answer the question: for me it was 8.6 hours of transition training, including the 1.5 at KCRQ. I had to fly 10 hours dual, and 5 hours solo for insurance. I'm really enjoying the plane and figure I should have decent technique and a handle on the settings after, oh, 500-600 hours, max.... 

Enjoy.     

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/23/2018 at 6:57 PM, sdflysurf said:

1) About how many hours with my instructor should I anticipate to get my complex endorsement and feel comfortable in this type/model?

Back in 2011 Avemco asked for 5 hours in type and 50 retractable. When I came back to them with M20E, they upped time in type on me and charged $1800, with promises to relieve the premiums after I get 25/125. It's all over the place. As for getting comfortable, it took me some 3 hours or so, although that was mostly landings. If you just cruise for hours, it's not teaching you anything that's not in the manual. Everyone I asked similarly found insurance requirements excessive. They should ask for some 5..8 high task load landings with CFI instead, IMHO. You know, when ATC asks to maintain forward speed to final or you're #4 for landing at a fly-in. That's when people forget to put gear down. The rest is really easy on a Mooney, it flies great at 100 mph.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, jaylw314 said:

You should practice touch-and-goes :lol:

Funny you should mention that, I've only did TnGs with the checkout CFI when I bought the plane. I'm afraid to pull the gear up by accident. I do love short and consistent landings, but I do not operate the gear in a hurry, ever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/24/2018 at 8:39 PM, DonMuncy said:

One of the harder jobs I found immediately after getting my Inst. rating was filing for a flight. I was taught how to fly on instruments, and how to fly an approach, etc., but somebody forgot to teach me how to choose a route or what departure and arrival to file. 

Hang in there. It gets better. And a side benefit is that under a flight plan, it is actually easier. Just do what ATC says.

I was kinda that way for the first few times but with ForeFlight, I love their "expect route" feature that notifies after filing. 

I almost always file direct (airport) to (airport) and then get the notification back from ATC in FF that says: "Received Expected route - load into Maps?"   Why yes!   After getting my actual clearance from ATC on the ground, 90% of the time it is what was expected - I then "push-to-panel" using my FlightStream 510 and load that route (and Departure) into my aircraft.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, zaitcev said:

Everyone I asked similarly found insurance requirements excessive. 

I've done a number of Mooney transition training programs for pilots. In virtually every case the underwriter was spot on for what the pilot *really* needed. My requirements when doing transition training include three things:

1) We meet the insurance required minimums

2) You're comfortable flying the airplane

3) I'm comfortable with you flying the airplane

When all three conditions are met, we're done.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/24/2018 at 6:39 PM, DonMuncy said:

One of the harder jobs I found immediately after getting my Inst. rating was filing for a flight. I was taught how to fly on instruments, and how to fly an approach, etc., but somebody forgot to teach me how to choose a route or what departure and arrival to file. 

Hang in there. It gets better. And a side benefit is that under a flight plan, it is actually easier. Just do what ATC says.

Yeah, what I haven't figured out is what to do if I'm in the soup and then I see some radar returns in my path on the NEXRAD...  Just tell ATC Ima nope out of that and please give me clearance to somewhere else?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, SantosDumont said:

Yeah, what I haven't figured out is what to do if I'm in the soup and then I see some radar returns in my path on the NEXRAD...  Just tell ATC Ima nope out of that and please give me clearance to somewhere else?

My very best experiences with ATC have been those dealing with unexpected weather. 

It really is as simple as saying "I don't like the looks of the radar returns ahead," and they'll often suggest an alternative heading (or accommodate a deviation that you suggest). 

ATC can be an amazing lifeline when the chips are down. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1)  Transition training took about 3-4 hours That was after flying back with the plane from its former home for 3 hours with same instructor.   Mostly landings and then some air work and then some solo landings he counted 7 landings I thought it was less.    I asked during sign off of the complex etc "Am I safe?"  He said "yes".   It took another 70 hours to feel comfortable in the plane and knowing that I had all the flows down.  It's kind of like the 2 years it takes to get comfortable riding a motorcycle.

2)  Are you just adding the rear jacks or a whole new audio panel?  What is in there now?   The whole new audio panel is the largest effort for a panel. It is not hard.   Just lots of pin out diagrams wiring stuff.   Not hard just tedious as there is no way fast to do it and you are sitting on a bucket in the cockpit for a long time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, SantosDumont said:

Yeah, what I haven't figured out is what to do if I'm in the soup and then I see some radar returns in my path on the NEXRAD...  Just tell ATC Ima nope out of that and please give me clearance to somewhere else?

It's negotiation skills, they can't really teach that too much.  Get in the habit of asking for what you need and why, like deviations around weather.  Have a couple requests, that way if they say no to the first one, be ready with a second.

Another thing people may not realize, Center has access to the same NEXRAD data you do on ADS-B or XM, and they can overlay it on their scopes.  Some Approach controllers do too, if they have newer equipment.  In a pinch, Approach's radar can see weather to some degree, but in real-time (as opposed to the potentially-delayed NEXRAD data).  You can ask them if they have time to go over problem spots with you and help you avoid problem areas.  They're not supposed to interpret the weather information for you, so don't ask them what the returns mean, but if you ask them, say to keep you more than "25 miles away from moderate to heavy returns", you're not putting them on the spot to interpret anything.

The vast majority of the time I've asked ATC for anything, they've bent over backwards to try to accommodate me.  I've even had one turn me down VFR flight following, and than call me up 10 minutes later asking if I was still on frequency to offer it.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

When filing plan I start with direct airport to airport on skyvector (I like to do my planning on a full screen) then I will adjust my route to miss restricted areas, and then MOAs if it is not too contorted of a route.  Certain areas if you fly them often enough (i.e. the gulf coast New Orleans to Florida) you get to know certain things the controllers like and then you just start filling them.

As for departures or arrivals I genially do not file any of those I will look the ones that are published and then take a best guess as to which one I might get even though I'll put no sids no stars in my remarks column of the flight plane.  I will then usually pick a way point or 2 in that procedure and add them to my filed flight plan so if I do get a sid or star I already have one or more of the points in my flight plan and I believe it helps ATC out some too.

 

Another trick especially if you are flying with an IFR GPS is to pick the procedure you want and the way point you want to start the procedure from load it into your flight plan on the GPS and then request that from ATC when you are getting close.  Most of the time they will clear you to the starting way point and for the procedure and it is already pre-loaded on the ground.  Less work in the air.  Learning from SnF :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, 1964-M20E said:

Another trick especially if you are flying with an IFR GPS is to pick the procedure you want and the way point you want to start the procedure from load it into your flight plan on the GPS and then request that from ATC when you are getting close.  Most of the time they will clear you to the starting way point and for the procedure and it is already pre-loaded on the ground.  Less work in the air.  Learning from SnF :)

It is also a good practice in case you have a lost com situation. Once I get the weather briefing and have a sense what the active runway will be, I will pick an IAF closest to the inbound direction of flight. If I lose com and the IAF is on my clearance, ATC can expect me to fly the approach from that point.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've noticed a significant change just in the last 10 years for IFR flights. It seems that all ATC facilities have excellent weather information and are quite proactive in keeping us clear of possibly damaging convection. 

It usually goes something like... "N252AD we show an area of moderate to severe precip 1 o'clock and 20 miles." "If you'd like a deviation, just let us know." At that point I'll either ask for a deviation left or right, 10 or 15 degrees. Or I'll say we're watching it and will advise. Or I'll ask what they suggest and ATC will offer a suggested deviation that will keep us clear.

IFR flight can be intimidating at first, but you quickly discover it's easier than going VFR. And will actually make the flight more relaxing.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

I've noticed a significant change just in the last 10 years for IFR flights. It seems that all ATC facilities have excellent weather information and are quite proactive in keeping us clear of possibly damaging convection. 

It usually goes something like... "N252AD we show an area of moderate to severe precip 1 o'clock and 20 miles." "If you'd like a deviation, just let us know." At that point I'll either ask for a deviation left or right, 10 or 15 degrees. Or I'll say we're watching it and will advise. Or I'll ask what they suggest and ATC will offer a suggested deviation that will keep us clear.

IFR flight can be intimidating at first, but you quickly discover it's easier than going VFR. And will actually make the flight more relaxing.

+1. Matches my experience exactly. (I file IFR on virtually every cross country flight. ATC can be a very helpful copilot.)

(I ferried a Mooney to @AGL Aviation yesterday to help out a couple of MSers. My ride to the plane was in a borrowed M20F flown by an ex Navy pilot who almost never talks to ATC. We had to maneuver under and around CLT's Bravo. Not my idea of fun. Dodged quite a bit of traffic displayed on a small screen 430W. I'm spoiled.) 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

IFR flight can be intimidating at first, but you quickly discover it's easier than going VFR. And will actually make the flight more relaxing.

I totally agree.  Well worth the weird routing or undesirable altitude I get occasionally.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.