Need Advice - 262 Conversion Engine/Prop/Cowling

[jetdriven]

You can certainly check for cam and lifter spalling on a continental engine. You pul the little housings that hold the  that lifters off and then pull the lifters and inspect those and cam. Lycoming’s, no. 

[jgarrison]

I appreciate all of the feedback. Thank you to those who are defending me to others questioning my motives. As a dealer/broker, I get that occasionally. That's the primary reason I don't post here often. I'm not thin skinned. I just don't need the aggravation of being thought of as less of a Mooney lover because I happen to make my living selling them.

First, I work for the owner and my desire is to put the most money in his/her/their pocket. That is the case with every airplane. Secondly, I work for a percentage commission, so I have zero incentive to sell this plane for a lesser amount than is possible. So here is more of the story. Then maybe my reasoning may come to better light and the decision to proceed will be justified...

The scenario presented above is not all together out of line with reality with the exception of the corrosion on the spar. There is none. But a lot of the other worst case items are there.  These are these value determinants and items needing repair (partial list).

*Damage History:  Not one gear up, but three. Plus an off runway excursion that caused a little damage.

*Useful Load:  752#. Actual Number. Just weighed. That puts it about the worst I have seen (maybe THE worst). If you have sold as many Mooneys as I have, you will know that one of the first three questions a buyer has when he or she calls on a plane is 'what is the Useful Load'. The other two are Damage History and Leaking Fuel Tanks. So we got two out of three disqualifiers for most people right up front.

*#1 Com inop (it the CNX-80 that is no longer supported by Garmin)

*Transponder inop (it is the Apollo remote transponder that I don't believe is supported any more). 

*HSI inop

*Attitude Indicator inop

*Paint Poor. A lot of pealing paint

*Interior Poor

*Fuel Gauges Intermittent

That is just a partial list. For those questioning how a plane that just went through annual is a candidate for parting out.... To Don's credit, he did not fly the plane because it did not have insurance on it. It was picked up from a broker in FLA and brought to him to annual. Don told me that the pilot did not mention any of the issues on the plane. I put the aircraft on my policy and flew it home after it was completed and that was when all of the gremlins from a good flight reared their ugly heads. I have a squawk list about 20 items long, most all of which would only be discovered on a flight. I believe 100% that the aircraft is airworthy (in the sense that is is mechanically sound and will fly from point A to point B safely). I flew it and as I mentioned in original post, the engine ran like a top and was/is actually the best part of the plane. But selling a plane like this is a major challenge. I am NOT going to sugarcoat a plane to try to get more than it is worth. In the past, when I ran across a plane like this one, I called another broker that I knew and told him to come pick up the plane and sell it for the owner (after I told the owner that I did not want to market the plane and that the other broker would be beneficial to them). I don't want to lie or embellish a plane to a prospect just to get a sale and with the disclosures I would have to put into this one, I am pretty sure the list of real buyers will be zero to just a few (maybe a guy who is on a C/E/F budget and will overlook the issues to get into a newer / faster plane). 

I have been doing this a long time, almost 25 years. I believe this plane will sell for something in the 90-100 range AFTER it is all fixed up. If it weren't for the damage and iffy logs, that number would be 110-120. If it weren't for the Useful Load, that number would be 125-135. All the numbers includes paint and interior plus fixing all the broken stuff or replacing it with more modern stuff. We are probably talking about 4-8 months of work and a lot of out of pocket expense to get to that point and in the end, you have a plane that is all prettied up with nice equipment but a 4 time damage / pathetic U/L and the hoped for selling price may be optimistic.  I think the engine/prop/cowling has value and is about half of the total 'as is' retail value of the plane (maybe more than half based on the offer I got from a guy that contacted me from this posting). I believe that the control surfaces, seats, autopilot components, speed brakes and what can be scraped up from the panel will get it to full retail equivalent - something around $50K. That will leave the wing and the tail section that are basically going to put it over the top from a value standpoint. And yes, all of this may take a long time to sell. But I was asked to do a job and I'm going to do it to the best of my ability and with the owner's best interest at hand and if I have to work a little longer and harder to get it done, that's what I will do.

So, now, if anyone would like an 'airworthy' 262 conversion at something north of $60K (which is what I am shooting for on the part out - looks like I have about $40K already in line), then give me a call before we start pulling parts. Thanks for all the comments. I will keep up with this thread and add info if needed. Jimmy

[KSMooniac]

Thanks for sharing the rest of the story. If I were in the market, I'd be tempted to fly it away at 60 and "make it my own" with all of the fixes/upgrades to my desires. The useful load is the real bummer...perhaps that could be helped during the make over.

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[N231BN]

Thanks for filling us in. I apologize for sounding disrespectful, I was thoroughly confused. Is there any chance the FWF is of any value to 231 owners, i.e. getting a permission letter for the STC?

[carusoam]

Great follow-up, JG!

Best regards,

-a-

[smccray]

That useful load number is shockingly low.  Extra sound proofing?  Extra heavy carpet & interior?  Dead body in the empennage?  Boat anchor under the floor?

You know better than the rest of us what the market is for Mooneys, but I'd be surprised if you couldn't find someone to pull the trigger @ $60K for that bird as she sits.  Clearly advertising it as a project plane... get rid of her.  It doesn't fit what I would be looking for, but I would think someone would be interested at that price.

[Igor_U]

2 hours ago, jgarrison said:

*Damage History:  Not one gear up, but three. Plus an off runway excursion that caused a little damage.

Perhaps you are correct to part this one. It's just one unlucky plane!

Thank you for sharing all the details.

[bradp]

What’s the chance you’d find the rest of the logs?  

I would be nice to keep the airframe intact but now I have a better appreciation of where you’re coming from.  

Am I correct in assessing that the value of the plane is in the engine and STC? If it’s possible to reconstruct the logs and show the GUL OAL repairs then it’s getting close. 

You almost need @Rmag or @jclemens to take the non-corroded and not-leaking hull and convert it into a modern showpiece.  Or sell the think to AOPA at a price that maximizes your client’s well being.  Or they could donate the hull and write off the loss.  AOPA did take an absolute wreck and converted it to a beautiful piece of art for their giveaway plane this year.  I think the above mentioned are the only two folks on the board that have the on hand assets / expertise to be able to “flip” a hull like this.  Most of the avionics are kaput.  Ok fine. Two G5’s or a G500Txi with engine instrumentation, remote transponder, strip down the unnecessary items weighing the poor thing down (are there Charlie weights, a loran and a celestial navigator hiding somewhere?) and get the UL at least in the respectable category.  This would be a perfect candidate for a Dynon, btw    

 

Another option would be sell the engine and prop, cowl, undo the STC and find a buyer for the airframe for 20-30k who could then retrofit an intercooled LB engine and do the avionics / paint interior as they like.  You’d have to have a very willing buyer looking for a project but at least the thing could stay in 2-3 parts and fly again one day .

Im being unnecessarily optimistic here .

Jimmy you may want to PM Jerry or @Alan Fox re the realities of parting a Mooney. 

 

[jgarrison]

1 hour ago, bradp said:

What’s the chance you’d find the rest of the logs?  

 

The logs do possibly exist. I have talked to the previous owner and he has a box of stuff that goes with the plane and he thinks the other logs are in the plane. He said he would send them to me and he has my FEDEX number to forward them on to me. The logs that are missing are between years, like 2003-2012. Original and current airframe are here. Engine since Triad overhaul in 2003 are here. No prop, at least I don't think there is a prop. 

[KSMooniac]

If it has the 262 conversion paperwork/STC the whole plane should have enough value to someone looking for a great project. There are far fewer 252 models out there compared to regular 231's, or especially a more common vintage C/E/F from the high volume era... An experienced Mooney owner should look at it as a potential blank canvas to customize to their liking, without automatically being upside-down given the newer/cheaper panel options that are becoming available.

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[gsxrpilot]

6 hours ago, jgarrison said:

I have been doing this a long time, almost 25 years. I believe this plane will sell for something in the 90-100 range AFTER it is all fixed up. If it weren't for the damage and iffy logs, that number would be 110-120. If it weren't for the Useful Load, that number would be 125-135. All the numbers includes paint and interior plus fixing all the broken stuff or replacing it with more modern stuff. We are probably talking about 4-8 months of work and a lot of out of pocket expense to get to that point and in the end, you have a plane that is all prettied up with nice equipment but a 4 time damage / pathetic U/L and the hoped for selling price may be optimistic.

First of all, it's funny to me all the comments that seem to be making the assumption that you are selling a Mooney for the first time. Those of us who know you, come to you for advice on how best to sell a Mooney.

Also, it's unfortunate that as a 231, it's not eligible for the Encore conversion which would give it respectable U/L. At the $120 - $135 range you're in 252 territory which is eligible for the Encore conversion and the U/L that goes with it.

[thinwing]

I think Jimmy wrote this entire post not really needing any advice we have to offer..he is the expert...he wrote it to find out if among this group or people who read it,is there any interest in purchasing the firewall forward and stc to convert a 232 to a 262.Sounds like he has a partial answer...

[KSMooniac]

...he wrote it to find out if among this group or people who read it,is there any interest in purchasing the firewall forward and stc to convert a 232 to a 262.Sounds like he has a partial answer...

I'm not sure someone can purchase the FWF and convert their own 231 to a 262. It is a murky question, though, since the STC owner is kaput. You might find a sympathetic IA and FSDO that might bless it, but I'd make very sure of this possibility before purchasing FWF with such intent.

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[bradp]

You might have better luck using the STC as approved data for a follow on STC / major mod. The transfer of the STC permission - if even required- is a murky murky area.