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Need Advice - 262 Conversion Engine/Prop/Cowling


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I can put this in the aircraft for sale section, but thought I might get more response here. I am looking for advice first, then will proceed to marketing if it makes sense.

I have been employed by a bank to sell a foreclosure on a M20K '262' conversion. That is the conversion that was done years ago by ModWorks that installed an MB engine, 252 prop and 252 OEM cowling on a Mooney 231 in place of the GB or LB engine. For reasons that are too numerous to list, I believe and have advised the owners that the plane is probably better suited to be sold in pieces than as a complete aircraft. I have started compiling ideas for the parts and components and likely values, but a lot of the decision is going to depend on the value of the front end. I am putting this out here for ideas on value and the best way to start this process, since this will be a first for me. 

The basics:

The engine is logged as having just over 250 hours SMOH.

The last SMOH is very sparse in writeup and was done after a gear up landing and was signed off by an A/P. There are no tags that accompany the writeup. This was in 2009. The log entry records all of the normal overhaul items (Case, Crank, Rods, Gears, New Cam, OH Cylinders) but does not mention anything about accessories.

Prior to the last SMOH, there was an overhaul by Triad in 2003. That was about 810 hours ago. I am comfortable with their name. The logs I have on the engine start with this overhaul.

Annual was completed on the plane in March of this year by Don Maxwell Aviation. Compressions were 72 / 70 / 70 / 71 / 74 / 72. There was no oil burn on the 1:45 flight that I made in the plane. I flew the plane from Maxwell's to our place. The engine ran perfectly. No issues and temps were good.

Prop is a 3-Blade Hartzell. No log book on it that I can find (we may come up with it, but no promises). It would have either been new or overhauled with new blades at 250 hours ago (when the gear up was repaired). 

The cowling is in good condition. No cracking or holes. The worst part is some wear on the upper cowling at the copilot side rear corner where it is worn a bit from mechanics setting it on the ground.

I am still working on getting the missing logs on the plane. There is a box that exists with information on the plane and may have logs on the prop, engine prior to Triad overhaul and other pertinent info (like yellow tags or workorders). I may or may not ever get that box. 

 

So where do I go from here? I don't know if it is best to sell the front end from firewall forward as a unit or further break down the engine to maximize the client's value. You guys always have good ideas. Help me get creative.

 

Thanks, Jimmy

 

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17 minutes ago, jgarrison said:

So where do I go from here? I don't know if it is best to sell the front end from firewall forward as a unit or further break down the engine to maximize the client's value. You guys always have good ideas. Help me get creative.

I would list it both ways for a couple weeks and reevaluate.  My concern isn't that you couldn't get the value out of the plane parting it out- you likely could.  However, by the time time the bank pays for maintenance to take the plane apart plus labor to sell the parts, it might be pretty tough.  Without damage history that would probably be a $50K engine given that it includes the core value.  Prop would be what- $5-8?  Without logs and with known damage history you're probably looking at core value plus perhaps a bit more but not a ton.  However- I'm cheap.  Maybe someone would pay more.

Sell the engine, prop, panel, then sell the rest of the airframe to air salvage or to DMax to part it out.

I'm way out of my area of expertise but I'll take a SWAG- Engine- $20K, Prop- $4K, Panel  ? (assume $0), Airframe- $20K?  The parts certainly have more than $20K worth of value, but there has to be a margin on it for a buyer, particularly since most of the parts will take a while to sell.  Fly the plane to whoever buys the airframe to avoid the airframe shipping cost and then ship the engine and prop from there.  I'd bet you can sell it for more than that with a lot less headache.

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I think you'll be far better off selling it as an airworthy flyer, especially with the recent Maxwell annual working in your favor. Even without full records/history. Any buyer of the engine and prop will want those records and pay only core value, max, without them anyway. Not to mention the pool of buyers for that firewall-forward will be small compared to a 360 Lycoming.

There is significant labor getting the valuable bits out of the airframe. Selling Mooney parts can bring money, but you'll have to be very patient and store them...Perhaps for years. I've parted out a wrecked J and still have stuff in my hangar and garage after 5 years. I came out making some money and getting spares and upgrades for my plane, but that is with my 200+? hours of labor counting as free/fun/educational time. If I accounted for that or paid someone, I'd be upside down.

I'm sure all of us would like to see pics and perhaps someone might be tempted to make an offer! There is a commercial pilot on our FB group looking for a Mooney right now in fact...

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I’m willing to bet that Jimmy Garrison knows if this plane is more valuable to part out, or to sell in one piece.  After all, I think he’s seen and sold more mooney’s than anyone else on the planet.  If he says part it, that’s probably wise advice.

Just sayin’....

 

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Agree on the sales numbers but to my knowledge he hasn't parted any out...It takes a lot longer to get money out of one that way versus letting it fly away after a sale. Without corrosion or hail damage, I think selling it whole will be far less hassle and ultimately more money since he'd likely have costs associated with disassembly, inventory, storage, shipping, taking calls for $50 parts, etc. It might take years to get all of the money out of it that way.

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There is a guy on eBay who has been trying to part out a 231 for at least 4 years.  I’m sure he sold some but he sure has a lot left!  When you add in all the hours to dismantle the plane, catalog and advertise parts along with eBay listing fees I can’t see he’s making a much of a profit.  Nobody is going to give you full value for an engine and prop with a questionable past.  You’d probably get something over core but not much more.  

In my way of thinking you have a desirable, airworthy plane you can sell pretty quickly.  Missing logs will impact the selling price somewhat but you have a recent Maxwell Annual.  You have to weigh the money you can get right now Vs incurring additional expenses, and headaches, on the hope you could make more .... maybe in 2-4 years.

Me,  I’d sell the plane “as is where is”, take the money and not look back.

BTW,  I did see a Rocket on TAP a while back,  that was being sold to liquidate an estate. Back then I had an electronic subscription and would get notified of new listings.   It was out of annual, who knows when it last flew, some remaining 1980s avionics, original P&I ... I don’t remember if it had logs.  I think they were asking $50K.  It sold in less than 3 hours, I know, I called on it.  Your plane is airworthy with an annual from a well respected MSC, I’d think you should be able to do a lot better. 

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On 4/20/2018 at 11:40 AM, KSMooniac said:

Agree on the sales numbers but to my knowledge he hasn't parted any out...It takes a lot longer to get money out of one that way versus letting it fly away after a sale. Without corrosion or hail damage, I think selling it whole will be far less hassle and ultimately more money since he'd likely have costs associated with disassembly, inventory, storage, shipping, taking calls for $50 parts, etc. It might take years to get all of the money out of it that way.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk
 

I think the point that Jimmy is saying above is that he couldn’t, in good conscious, sell this airplane to anyone, for whatever reason.  I can speculate on why...  but I think all of us can imagine a horror story or two.  I guess my point is that he has a plane on his hands which he believes is better off to not be billed/sold as a complete, safe, flying airplane and while he hasn’t parted planes- he is certainly an authority on what a good safe sellable Mooney is.... and this one for whatever reason, is not.

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5 hours ago, M016576 said:

I think the point that Jimmy is saying above is that he couldn’t, in good conscious, sell this airplane to anyone, for whatever reason.  I can speculate on why...  but I think all of us can imagine a horror story or two.  I guess my point is that he has a plane on his hands which he believes is better off to not be billed/sold as a complete, safe, flying airplane and while he hasn’t parted planes- he is certainly an authority on what a good safe sellable Mooney is.... and this one for whatever reason, is not.

What horor story? He told us that the airplane went through an annual that Maxwell signed off last month, did he not? He also told us he flew it for 1:45 with no squwaks, did he not? He knew the airplane before deciding to have the annual, did he not?

Why is he now hesitating on selling it and contemplating parting it? What’s the reason?

Something doesn’t add up. Why put the seller through the expense of doing the annual? 

Something doesn’t add up. What’s the rest of the story? 

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1 hour ago, PTK said:

What horor story? He told us that the airplane went through an annual that Maxwell signed off last month, did he not? He also told us he flew it for 1:45 with no squwaks, did he not? He knew the airplane before deciding to have the annual, did he not?

Why is he now hesitating on selling it and contemplating parting it? What’s the reason?

Something doesn’t add up. Why put the seller through the expense of doing the annual? 

Something doesn’t add up. What’s the rest of the story? 

Something definitely not right here from the brief description this sounds like it might be a nice airplane and deserves to be taken care of not put down. Heck you can list it here for free and you might sell with minimal hassle. Plus if you did we could all have fun discussing what we thought it's worth IMHO.

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If it is a bank repo how can he part it without buying it himself?  Bank isn't going to sit on it that long.  It will bring a few dollars quickly but the thing will sit for years before he sells all of it.  I have Mooneys here that were bought 20 years ago and still have too many good parts to sell for scrap.   Course the bank will sell cheaper if told it is being scrapped.

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On 4/20/2018 at 7:46 AM, jgarrison said:

For reasons that are too numerous to list, I believe and have advised the owners that the plane is probably better suited to be sold in pieces than as a complete aircraft.

@PTK @gsxrpilot above is the quote from Jimmy.  

Here is a scenario (horror story) I can think of: signs of corrosion (spar or otherwise), coupled with leaking fuel tanks coupled with an overhaul that has no tags for new parts or documentation coupled with all old radios that are only semi functional. Add a ratty interior and original paint that’s peeling and very little in the logbooks. Those things together that would effectively put the value of the plane at 0 as an airplane in my books- the value of the parts would be far higher.  Agreeing to sell such an airplane whole *as an airplane* may be a dishonest venture at best.  Selling it as a parts bird... well, Alan might be interested.

objectively: would you actually advise a member on this board- or anyone really- to buy the airplane described above if it had a “fresh annual” (regardless from who signed it off?) 

i know, I know: I made up the plane above. But what I do know is this: their are “technically airworthy” planes out there, C/E/F/J/K’s.....that would cost more to get up to what I’d consider to be safe, modern standards, than similar models (which are in great shape) are openly listed for.  So why buy such an airplane... and good on Jimmy for not trying to sell one like that back into the market.

again- if anyone would know what’s a sellable Mooney- it’s Jimmy.

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2 hours ago, M016576 said:

@PTK @gsxrpilot above is the quote from Jimmy.  

Here is a scenario (horror story) I can think of: signs of corrosion (spar or otherwise), coupled with leaking fuel tanks coupled with an overhaul that has no tags for new parts or documentation coupled with all old radios that are only semi functional. Add a ratty interior and original paint that’s peeling and very little in the logbooks. Those things together that would effectively put the value of the plane at 0 as an airplane in my books- the value of the parts would be far higher.  Agreeing to sell such an airplane whole *as an airplane* may be a dishonest venture at best.  Selling it as a parts bird... well, Alan might be interested.

objectively: would you actually advise a member on this board- or anyone really- to buy the airplane described above if it had a “fresh annual” (regardless from who signed it off?) 

i know, I know: I made up the plane above. But what I do know is this: their are “technically airworthy” planes out there, C/E/F/J/K’s.....that would cost more to get up to what I’d consider to be safe, modern standards, than similar models (which are in great shape) are openly listed for.  So why buy such an airplane... and good on Jimmy for not trying to sell one like that back into the market.

again- if anyone would know what’s a sellable Mooney- it’s Jimmy.

I’m not buying your story because the airplane was just annualled and signed off as airworthy by Don Maxwell. What are you trying to say? Jimmy cares so much but Maxwell doesn’t? He signed it off and has a lot more at stake than a used airplane dealer don’t you think! I’d trust Maxwell’s opinion over any salesman’s. I fail to see how the annual was signed off but the airplane can’t fly but has to be parted out. Who is saying that? Jimmy or Maxwell? If I was the seller and, on the agent’s advice, just paid for an annual I would not be happy to then be told by same agent that my plane will not fly as a whole and has to be parted. That’s nuts! What was the purpose of the annual?

There has to be more to the story.

 

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2009 was a terrible time for the banks and some individuals. Their ability to keep documents straight under the mass closings of major banking institutions, combined with the individuals that may have been forced into letting things go...

The steep downturn in the economy lasted more than a year...

  • A 262 in good condition is a great machine.  Basically a 231 converted to a 252, but retained the original 14v electrical system...
  • The STC would be important to have a copy of.  One copy should be on file with the FAA... Another with the plane’s logs... the third copy is with the STC holder of record... expect that particular STC owner has gone awol... Not sure where those records may be...
  • If for some reason, it makes sense to separate the FWF or really, the instrument panel forward... a copy of the STC from the FAA should provide some value to a K owner looking to build a 262...
  • This scale of project really makes sense at OH time, or a GU landing has caused a reason, or a 231 owner has a significant change in his mission...

I have a house in my neighborhood that has sat for the last nine years... bank owned and aging... every now and then, one bank sells it to the next bank and the yard falls into disarray.... until the new bank gets control of the physical property...

With a Continental engine... it wouldn’t be too hard to get a look at cylinder walls and cam/follower surfaces... (so I have heard around here).

Hopefully, the box of logs shows up soon.

See if you can find the STC in the FAA website or anyother serial number related document for the plane...

When it comes to financial institutions and planes... they prefer to not Accidently pick up any unknown risks.  GA planes are often a very unknown to them, type of risk.  They may prefer to dismantle a plane to make the unknown problem go away.  Get off their books.  And generally not show up again, ever....

Now picture being a banker.

  • Not familiar with GA.
  • Probably got this plane in some box of other assets in a trade...
  • Learning what happened to the STC holder.
  • Somebody took it to Maxwell and got it through annual.  (Interesting risk taken)
  • Don is pretty good about discussing recent plane annuals...

If Somebody is interested in buying this plane in a total flying package format... what would be needed?

  • Logs or log rebuilding...? Could be in place soon...
  • Annual...?  Seems to be in place...
  • PPI to define as many answers to this list as possible... any remaining or new AW issues? A list of non-aw issues?

Sounds like a fun machine sales challenge...  whole, operating, machines, in annual, can be worth a lot more than their parts...

PP thoughts only, I bought a great plane from Jimmy after the economic debacle... strange economic times... I’m not a plane salesman, yet...:)

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

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1 hour ago, PTK said:

I’m not buying your story because the airplane was just annualled and signed off as airworthy by Don Maxwell. What are you trying to say? Jimmy cares so much but Maxwell doesn’t? He signed it off and has a lot more at stake than a used airplane dealer don’t you think! I’d trust Maxwell’s opinion over any salesman’s. I fail to see how the annual was signed off but the airplane can’t fly but has to be parted out. Who is saying that? Jimmy or Maxwell? If I was the seller and, on the agent’s advice, just paid for an annual I would not be happy to then be told by same agent that my plane will not fly as a whole and has to be parted. That’s nuts! What was the purpose of the annual?

There has to be more to the story.

 

It's all in the economics. If you have a plane that will only sell for $30,000, and could be sold for $60,000 as parts, it would be a no brainer. The closer together those numbers get, the larger the incentive to sell intact, to avoid the headaches and time it takes to sell the parts. 

I don't like it and would much prefer to see the plane stay in the fleet, but if it was my money involved....

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1 hour ago, PTK said:

I’m not buying your story because the airplane was just annualled and signed off as airworthy by Don Maxwell. What are you trying to say? Jimmy cares so much but Maxwell doesn’t? He signed it off and has a lot more at stake than a used airplane dealer don’t you think! I’d trust Maxwell’s opinion over any salesman’s. I fail to see how the annual was signed off but the airplane can’t fly but has to be parted out. Who is saying that? Jimmy or Maxwell? If I was the seller and, on the agent’s advice, just paid for an annual I would not be happy to then be told by same agent that my plane will not fly as a whole and has to be parted. That’s nuts! What was the purpose of the annual?

There has to be more to the story.

 

All I’m saying is that for whatever reason (and in jimmys words: their are too many to list), he doesn’t believe it’s worth it to sell the plane as a plane.

could be a clouded title, could be a bank repo issue, could be that the plane just isn’t worth it due to a whole host of mechanical reasons... no matter what though: the guy that moves more Mooney’s than anyone else in the world says “it’s not worth it to sell it,” then I’m surprised that so many people would immediately question that call.

Edit: on the topic of annuals, I realize I never answered the “horror stories”- I was referring to the 2-3 spalled cams that I’ve read about on this board within the first year of ownership- those being on J’s, and the 2-3 annuals that cost the new owner 20+ K within the first year.  From the various threads covering those issues, the buyers all did PPI’s and a reasonable amount of DD.  Sometimes the annuals you receive may not catch everything.  I won’t get into the MSC vs field A&P here- that’s a separate thread.

Edited by M016576
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7 minutes ago, M016576 said:

Edit: on the topic of annuals, I realize I never answered the “horror stories”- I was referring to the 2-3 spalled cams that I’ve read about on this board within the first year of ownership- those being on J’s, and the 2-3 annuals that cost the new owner 20+ K within the first year.  From the various threads covering those issues, the buyers all did PPI’s and a reasonable amount of DD.  Sometimes the annuals you receive may not catch everything.  I won’t get into the MSC vs field A&P here- that’s a separate thread.

As far as I know, you have to pull a cylinder or more to check for cam spalling, and is not part of an annual inspection. And I suspect most sellers would balk at having a one or more cylinders pulled to check for it also. So the surprising part might be that there are not more planes purchased with spalled cams.

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The other part Jimmy mentioned...

‘Trying to maximize client value’... Jimmy doesn’t seem to have purchased this one outright (yet)... value is going to be highly dependent on getting as many Ts crossed and Is dotted before the bank tries to sell it...

Usually AAA is preferring the top of the crop, then the lower end projects...

Lower end projects are often better in the hands of our parts re-sellers... Grimmy and Jerry...

There is a thread or two around here on what is required to rebuild logs and AD histories... an expensive process for an ordinary owner... If the engine OH records can be obtained from the shop that did the work, This would save a ton of dough identifying all of the engine parts in the engine...

What would be the ‘worst case’ scenario... the whole airframe, prop, and engine are considered run-out and are in need of an OH from top to bottom... rebuilt logs with full proper documentation would be the basis of the project.  we have had a few planes around here go through the total process... JClemmens did a nice write-up on how he handled one plane as it was in process....

We have several types of owners around MS... Project planes people are just one of them...

 

examples of project planes people...

  • People that have the ability to part out each piece while it is kept in storage...
  • Mechanics that have space in a hangar that can work on things over time....
  • MSCs that have a project always taking up slack in the work week when projects are slow...
  • Young mechanically incline people that have more skill than money

hopefully good answers come forwards in the coming days... :)

PP thoughts only.  Stuff I read around MS...

Best regards,

-a-

 

A note about the words ‘worst case’. This is tech speak for ‘most expensive’  case to make something right again. Somebody used this term before and got misinterpreted.... there may be a lot of better cases.  That is what Jimmy is trying to get a feel for while asking about this project?

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As far as I know, you have to pull a cylinder or more to check for cam spalling, and is not part of an annual inspection. And I suspect most sellers would balk at having a one or more cylinders pulled to check for it also. So the surprising part might be that there are not more planes purchased with spalled cams.

While you can’t check the cam for early signs of spalling,corrosion; you can check if cam is in bad shape, removing rocker covers and check the valve openings are to spec.
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