Ovation down north of San Antonio

[MIm20c]

1 minute ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

None of the usual complaints about everybody’s insurance rates going up like there are with a gear up.  Interesting.  Glad everyone is O.K. I wonder if Nostradamus could of predicted that one?

I know all forms of mistakes can happen but the only claims that bother me are tow bar strikes or similar on high time engines / impossible to sell units.  I would never look at monetary issues when peoples (or dogs) lives are on the line. 

[exM20K]

7 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/04/mooney-m20r-ovation-n6868-incident_16.html

It looks like it overshot runway 30, broke through the fence (so for sure engine teardown) and ended up on Heimer Rd.

 

KSAT 162051Z 18018G26KT 10SM CLR 28/08 A3010 RMK AO2 PK WND 15026/2040 SLP178 T02780078 56037
KSAT 161951Z 16017G24KT 10SM CLR 28/08 A3014 RMK AO2 SLP192 T02780083
KSAT 161851Z 18015G24KT 10SM CLR 26/11 A3017 RMK AO2 SLP203 T02610111
KSAT 161751Z 16015KT 10SM CLR 24/11 A3021 RMK AO2 SLP217 T02440111 10244 20083 58014

yikes.

 

[KSMooniac]

That's some very sporty wind to be using runway 30. I think that might be a one way in/out runway...dunno. Diverting to another field and ubering home is what I did last month when my home base had monster crosswinds, an no quartering tailwind.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[exM20K]

3 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

[snip]. Diverting to another field and ubering home is what I did last month when my home base had monster crosswinds, an no quartering tailwind.


 

Ditto.  Uber has really lowered the pain level of diverting.  I'm not sure how the economics work out for drivers running around the burbs, but the whole arrangement works great for me!  KARR has multiple runways, an ILS, and two LPV approaches, and not having to scrounge for a cab in the middle of nowhere is great.

[Urs_Wildermuth]

3 hours ago, steingar said:

 I sure as hell am not flying a Mooney into a 2200 ft occluded strip.

It depends strongly how the strip is and which Mooney. I´ve never flown an Ovation but I am regularly going into a 1500 ft strip for training with my C. And on that airfield there are several other Mooneys based, 201, 231 and even one M22. I don´t know what the LDA is at the accident airfield, but with 2200 ft total lenght I reckon it is more than 1500 ft. In comparison to this airfield however, the one I fly to has plenty of space around the runway.

What I do notice from the movies about this airfield however is that it is extremely tight sideways. Also I notice that nobody lands on the centerline of the asphalt but rather off center in the grass.

With the owner living there one would assume that he had plenty experience going in and out of this airfield...

[steingar]

15 minutes ago, Urs_Wildermuth said:

It depends strongly how the strip is and which Mooney. I´ve never flown an Ovation but I am regularly going into a 1500 ft strip for training with my C. And on that airfield there are several other Mooneys based, 201, 231 and even one M22. I don´t know what the LDA is at the accident airfield, but with 2200 ft total lenght I reckon it is more than 1500 ft. In comparison to this airfield however, the one I fly to has plenty of space around the runway.

You got bigger ones than me.  

[Urs_Wildermuth]

Just now, steingar said:

You got bigger ones than me.  

Naah... but that is the average size of most airfields in Europe.

My plane has been to Helgoland.

Ok, these are meters.

Ok, it is not a Mooney but a Seneca and a PA28.

TB20...

[steingar]

Helloland Anflug: Anything happens to the mill on that approach and you're going swimming.  I do like to be high enough that should the mill quit I can still make the runway.   Where I live most of the short strips are also occluded, making things way more fun.  Steingar fears nothing, but I do have a pretty good sense of what I should and shouldn't do.

[LANCECASPER]

14 minutes ago, Urs_Wildermuth said:

With the owner living there one would assume that he had plenty experience going in and out of this airfield...

What I learn from that, is that's most likely exactly what caused it. We are all susceptible to "I've done this hundreds of times unscathed, I can do it again". But maybe not with a tailwind, or an unexpected wind gust or a distraction on the ground or in the cockpit or on a day that you just aren't 100%.

99 out of 100 is great in most endeavors, except flying. I feel more comfortable with a higher margin of safety. There are a lot of things we can't control, but what field we base at we can control. I also choose to base at an airpark, but the runway is 3800 feet long and 80 feet wide. Do I need it to be that long? Not most of the time, but if a few of my pilot imperfections surface that day along with something unexpected, I have a better chance of getting it stopped safely.

[kortopates]

Very unfortunate event for Bill, but glad nobody got hurt. Hopefully the wing is repairable or they can replace it.

I was shocked by some of worst characterizations I've read in the news about an aviation incident - i added italics to the portions I am referring too.

----------------------- from http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/04/mooney-m20r-ovation-n6868-incident_16.html 

"A small aircraft landed on a North Side street Monday afternoon after the pilot apparently missed a nearby runway."

"San Antonio Fire Capt. Kevin Koch said a couple in their 70s were trying to land the plane at Twin Oaks Airport around 3 p.m. when a wind gust lifted the plane past the runway. It ended  up in the 600 block of Heimer Road."

--------------------------
For sure this is a short runway and gusty winds with tail wind probably made all the difference. But its certainly not too short and although I've never been there the airport data shows the runway gradient on RWY 30 to 1.9% so this makes for a very steep runway landing uphill. Using the rule of thumb that every 1% in gradient is equivalent to landing on 10% more runway, the runway at 2225 * 119% = equivalent length of 2647' - which is much more reasonable yet still very narrow. Of course I am not accounting for obstructions landing on RWY 30 but on google earth it doesn't look horrible.

On 4/17/2018 at 10:24 AM, exM20K said:

KSAT 162051Z 18018G26KT 10SM CLR 28/08 A3010 RMK AO2 PK WND 15026/2040 SLP178 T02780078 56037
KSAT 161951Z 16017G24KT 10SM CLR 28/08 A3014 RMK AO2 SLP192 T02780083
KSAT 161851Z 18015G24KT 10SM CLR 26/11 A3017 RMK AO2 SLP203 T02610111
KSAT 161751Z 16015KT 10SM CLR 24/11 A3021 RMK AO2 SLP217 T02440111 10244 20083 58014

yikes.

 

But using the worst case KSAT winds of 18018/G26 indicates landing RWY 30 Tail wind component of 6.5 gust 8.8 and xwind of 18 gust to 24. And the GA rule of thumb for tailwinds is 10% landing distance increase for every additional 2 kts. So although the uphill gradient was a help by perhaps 19%, the tail wind was 30-40+% reducing the effective runway. But the peak winds in the Metar tell a much worse story. If the Mooney got a taste of those peak winds while on the runway, the 150/26 yields 22.5 kt tailwind with 13 kt x-wind component - which is more like a 110% reduction in effective runway length or stopping distance. Wow - Yikes is right!!

 

Also of note, Jolie has been hosting a very popular Mooney fly-in on our west coast a couple times a year at Oceano L52 which is just a 100' feet longer at 2325x50. No real obstructions, but very flat (0.5% gradient) but I doubt it will ever see the density altitude of a  airport in Texas. But we've had all kinds of Mooney's including longbodies come into Oceano. Of course Its always important to being right on target speed for a short field landing; else the infamous Mooney float will eat up much of the runway. But rather than gusty winds, our biggest cause for diversions has been the marine layer.  

[exM20K]

4 hours ago, kortopates said:

Very unfortunate event for Bill, but glad nobody got hurt. Hopefully the wing is repairable or they can replace it.

I was shocked by some of worst characterizations I've read in the news about an aviation incident - i added italics to the portions I am referring too.

----------------------- from http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/04/mooney-m20r-ovation-n6868-incident_16.html 

"A small aircraft landed on a North Side street Monday afternoon after the pilot apparently missed a nearby runway."

"San Antonio Fire Capt. Kevin Koch said a couple in their 70s were trying to land the plane at Twin Oaks Airport around 3 p.m. when a wind gust lifted the plane past the runway. It ended  up in the 600 block of Heimer Road."

--------------------------
[snip]

Well, since he *did* file a flight plan, they didn't have "no flight plan was filed" to report.

-de

[Bravoman]

I think I do a pretty good job landing the Bravo and my comfort with shorter runways has increased in the almost 5 years since I’ve had her. Still, I think for me 3000 ft on a relatively calm wind day and up from there as the winds, gusts, crosswinds,  etc increase is my everyday comfort level. I have put her down on as little as 2600 ft but that is my absolute minimum and only when conditions are ideal.

[Skates97]

7 hours ago, kortopates said:

Also of note, Jolie has been hosting a very popular Mooney fly-in on our west coast a couple times a year at Oceano L52 which is just a 100' feet longer at 2325x50. No real obstructions, but very flat (0.5% gradient) but I doubt it will ever see the density altitude of a  airport in Texas. But we've had all kinds of Mooney's including longbodies come into Oceano. Of course Its always important to being right on target speed for a short field landing; else the infamous Mooney float will eat up much of the runway. But rather than gusty winds, our biggest cause for diversions has been the marine layer.  

Oceano is fun, we're hoping to get there May 12th. Be on your target speed and it was plenty long for my plane. With brakes we could have made the first turn off but chose to roll out instead. (Jump ahead to 2:50)

 

On 4/17/2018 at 1:02 PM, LANCECASPER said:

What I learn from that, is that's most likely exactly what caused it. We are all susceptible to "I've done this hundreds of times unscathed, I can do it again". But maybe not with a tailwind, or an unexpected wind gust or a distraction on the ground or in the cockpit or on a day that you just aren't 100%.

I agree. A couple of my better landings were my first and only times at Harris Ranch with it's 30' wide runway and Oceano with it's short runway and clouds off the coast eliminating a go-around unless I was going to take my non-IFR equipped plane and myself (a non-IFR pilot) into the marine layer. Those things had me very focused on airspeed, vertical speed, and alignment resulting in good landings. Some of my worst ones are at fields that I am very familiar with.

[Bryan]

I was at Don Maxwell’s today and he said this plane will fly again; not too bad to fix but insurance will probably total it for Bill. It was not underinsured but not overinsured either.

[chrisk]

I've been able to land my Mooney in very short distances, 800 feet or less to stopping.  The problem I have is with consistency.  I have to be on the top of may game.  Add a gusty cross wind  and no way.

And for those that have never made a tail wind landing.  It's amazing how fast the runway goes by and how much you use.   Your roll out is much longer too.  If you do this by mistake, or if the wind shifts, you will know something is wrong and off.   --A good time for a go around.  It could be your gear is up too.

[flyboy0681]

I have never seen a fly-in community where the houses were so close to the runway. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

10 hours ago, Bravoman said:

I think I do a pretty good job landing the Bravo and my comfort with shorter runways has increased in the almost 5 years since I’ve had her. Still, I think for me 3000 ft on a relatively calm wind day and up from there as the winds, gusts, crosswinds,  etc increase is my everyday comfort level. I have put her down on as little as 2600 ft but that is my absolute minimum and only when conditions are ideal.

My two short body Mooney planes were noticeably better with shorter runways than my Ovation.  

The C especially was ok into airports I’d not attempt in the Ovation.  Solo with just me and 1/2 tanks the C is about 950 pounds lighter than the Ovation.  Same wing, similar brake area.  

Bravoman has it right in saying any runway under 3000’ is going to take special care in a long body Mooney.